If your interested is grape breeding, I’ll have a limited amount of assorted Munson hybrids next year from Grayson collage and some from @Blake ‘s nursery (all in cutting form now). I am also interested in grape breeding, but unfortunately haven’t done any myself. The only grape that has produced is a 4 year old concord (my first fruiting plant besides annuals).
I’ll probably just plant open pollinated seeds because I know nothing about grape pollination.
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Regarding munson grapes, I think it is important to note that they are very much a mixed bag. Some of them have useful traits certainly, but not all of his varieties are particularly healthy or resistant, and many of the ones that do have disease resistance are not strongly resistant to all diseases. Sometimes they have decent resistance to one or two diseases, and terrible resistance to others. Many of his varieties failed for good, solid, viticultural reasons, not just due to the general political climate of prohibition etc. after his death.
Now his book is a must read for any would be grape breeder, and his work with wild species was outstanding and is very relevant to this day, but many of his cultivars are rare for a reason imho. You have to remember, when he was breeding there was no such thing as plant patents, and often times, in that time period, the approach was to release something after some very limited testing, sell new plants at the highest price possible to early adopters, and if it was good great, it would become more widespread, and if it wasn’t, people would stop buying it or planting it and it would disappear. Testing was not nearly as extensive as it usually is before varietal release today. The public was the guinea pig. Varieties were often introduced and discarded very rapidly, which is a big part of why he introduced so many.
Really, you need figure out what traits are most important to you and go from there. Certainly Munsons material is worth looking at for some traits, I have and do use some of it myself, but it’s important to be clear eyed about what it can give you and what it can’t.
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Have you personally bred any varieties that are worth propagating for either wine, table, or market? I’m mostly interested in breeding things like grapes (zero experience, lots of reading and dreaming) for the increased disease resistance. I might even be willing to grow the wild grapes for eating if it means it’s less work.
We are in central northern ky, ohio valley technically, I found at least three types of wild grapes next to my driveway last evening. Labrusca, aestivalis, and riparia. I used an identifier app so it may not all be accurate. The aestivalis leaves are pretty distinct so I think that one is correct. I transplanted a few to the garden to graft over, or let them grow out and fruit. There’s hundreds, if not thousands of vines in our 10 acres of woods. I was told that one reason the germans settled the area was that there was plenty of grape stock growing for wine making.
Do you have any info like above on labrusca? This is all awesome info, thank you for documenting your work.
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I’ll be in touch
I looked at your profile, and given your area in northern KY, the most likely wild species to be in your area are vitis vulpina & vitis aestivalis. Vitis riparia may also be in the area, and vitis labrusca could be, but it’s sorta on the edge of it’s native range.
I didn’t do a post on vitis labrusca specifically, because it’s not native to my area, and I don’t have pictures of wild vines or much direct experience with the species as a result.
I have used hybrids of it in further breeding work, but not the pure species itself. However, based on how the hybrids perform and also some general knowledge of the species, not first had experience with the wild type, I would expect at least some individuals of the species to have resistance to downy and powdery mildew, black rot and and anthracnose. They are documented as having lower tolerance to phylloxera than many species, but if they do grow in your area, clearly it is adequate for your region. I would not expect much pierces disease resistance, but you are far enough north that disease is unlikely to be a problem.
You asked if I have developed improved cultivars. To that I would say it depends on how you define that. I don’t have finished cultivars that meet my fruit quality and disease resistance standards and are ready for release no. I do have some breeding lines I have developed with good to outstanding disease tolerance and fruit quality that is improved over the wild type, but would still need more breeding work to become a releasable cultivar. They still have issues like berry and cluster size still too small, female flowers, fruit acidity too high etc. I might have a selection or two with female flowers(easiest type to use in breeding) and high general disease resistance that would potentially be suitable for use in your area.
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Awesome, I look forward to the day you are rewarded for your efforts, whether it be through a patent or some other means. One of the vines I found had deeply lobed young leaves. Though I’m sure they will change when mature. I will wait this season and see how they develop to better determine what they are. In any case I’m looking to take what we already have growing and make it better.
Last questions: Any recommended crosses to make with the aestivalis variety, and have your results been predictable in any way?
And what are your thoughts on using these wild vines as rootstock?
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I was partly aware of that stuff.
I am only going to be collecting stuff the next few years and keep the plants that do well. Then in the future I’ll take the plants that do well and then start crossing them.
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Not really, because so much depends on what your goals and personal preferences are. Use what strikes your fancy and has some of the characteristics you would like in the offspring. There is a huge number of different potential parents you can use, and depending on if you are going for wine grapes or table grapes, your parent choices are likely to be very different. Only general observations I would make, is the less vinifera there is in the background of the parents, on average, the easier it is to get good disease resistance, but the harder it is to get good fruit quality. The reverse is also true. High vinifera content makes it easier to get good fruit quality, but much harder to get good disease resistance. Most offspring tend to be intermediate between the parents for most traits, both in quality and disease resistance. The tricky part is finding offspring that strongly express a high percentage of the desirable traits you want, and as few negative traits as possible.
When it comes to using aestivalis as a rootstock, I wouldn’t recommend it. Aestivalis tends to root somewhere between poorly and very poorly from cuttings, so it is not often used for that purpose. Also, in general, you don’t want to use a rootstock if you are planting hybrids with enough resistance to grow on their own roots. Own root is better if the vine can handle it. There can be specific situations where rootstocks are advisable for some hybrids, and anytime you plant pure vinifera it should be grafted on to some rootstock. In general, you’re probably better off sticking with one of the commercial rootstocks if you need to use a rootstock.
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I did some research last year on the use of copper in organic wineries in Europe. Not surprisingly, writers close to the industry say that it is not a problem, because elevated levels in soil do not linear correspond to levels in grapes. That is true, because soil has components that chelate copper and hold on to it strongly, and uptake by vines is regulated. But for soils it also means that you’ll never get rid of copper again, if it has accumulated over generations. Some vineyards in Europe have 1.5g copper per kilogram soil, for comparison, soils in my area have about 20mgs. And most Italien wines have copper levels that exceed the guidelines of the EU. Copper is an essential trace element, but at elevated levels it is neurotoxic and triggers inflammation (due to redox cycling through switch between copper (I) and copper (II).
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