That is just the tip of the iceberg. In the below, I posted the study and an example of the genetic grouping for Li, which has 24 different entries. A lot of “different” jujubes are just renamed existing cultivars. Especially the Li, Lang, and Sherwood groups.
Are these different yet genetically identical jujube just renamed and are the sane, or are they thought to be various sports of the same variety?
The genetics from 147 different SNP gene markers were compared for over 100 “different” varieties. Per the paper, the chances of a two samples matching all 147, but not being associated (not necessarily identical) with the same variety is astronomically small. But, there could be a small difference (such as a branch sport mutation) which impacts something in the DNA that wasn’t included in the 147 SNPs. So, some of the 23 different cultivars which match Li could be identical and some could have small genetic differences. Similar to how some Red Delicious apples are darker red (and less flavorful) than the original Hawkeye variety.
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“Astronomically small” pretty much means that sports are likely implausible.
Thank you for clearing that up for me.
No, sports are usually just a few gene mutations away from the original.
The chances of the mutation being exactly on one of those markers is very small, many are probably legitimate sports with some minor differences in color, texture, or flavor
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No, the astronomically small is that they aren’t associated at all. Not that there isn’t some minor difference in one of the base pairs that wasn’t examined.
agreed
It’s possible that many are sports, but is really hard to determine. A lot of the differences could be smaller than what you see from two trees with identical DNA grown a mile apart. It would take a very careful controlled study (say, 10 trees of each type of identical ages and source, all grown together for 5-10 years) or a DNA test which examples the entire genome to make the determination. For now, I just generally equate them in my head.
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Thanks BobVance and Phlogopite.
I hadn’t had much sleep in the past couple of days due to the firework-mageddon out here, so my comprehension was a bit limited. I cannot wait until these fools’ stockpile runs out and I can get a full night sleep.
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Anyone else starting jujube seedlings this winter? I planted my first batch of 39 seeds in 19 pots on 12/14. The first one came up 10 days later and 18 of the 19 pots have at least one germinated seed.
The average time for the first seed to come up is 14 days. But, that is for the seeds I kept in my warm office, at 75F or a bit higher. I planted more seeds right after Christmas and none have germinated yet, 13 days later. But, they’ve been in the cooler living room, at 65-67F.
Each time a seedling germinated, I moved them under the LED lights.
The first batch is mostly Bing Tang, with a few Wu He and Hidden Gem, two sour varieties. The Hidden Gem was likely pollinated by Honey Jar (same tree, with closest others are ~50 ft away), while the Wu He could have a number of possible male parents, with So, Massandra, and Early Golden Crisp being the closest.
Both Wu He and Hidden Gem were produced on grafts that were made this past spring, so both are pretty precocious.
Of the later seeds that I planted (not yet germinated):
Honey Jar
Wu He and Bing Tang (more)
Texas Tart
Elk Grove
Early Golden Crisp
Black Sea
Bok Jo
BV1
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I am getting an R4T3 scion from CliffEngland, and I wanted to know if I could bark graft it to this branch below with the red line.
I don’t want to lose the other branch which has Shanxi Li, but I don’t know if a bark graft put on the lower branch at the red line would survive or if the other branch is left to remain.
What do you think?
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You can graft it anywhere on that branch. I don’t know what size your scion is whether bark graft would be the best type of graft. Others can chime in on it.
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I like bark grafts for jujube. You just need to make sure you support the graft union for a year or two with a bamboo stake as a splint or something similar. Strong winds or birds landing on the scion can snap it off if you don’t splint it. I think this would probably work to graft onto this branch, but it’ll be a bit tricky to manage two competing leaders originating from that close to the ground. Ideally I would let your small trees get established first before grafting multiple varieties to them. But if you feel the compulsion to graft this spring, then I would prefer to prune off one branch and graft to the top of the remaining branch. You could allow a side branch of the Shanxi-Li to grow from below the graft to preserve both varieties. I wouldn’t want to deal with two main trunks, so i try to stick with a single central leader until a couple of feet from the ground at least.
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Alternatively you could graft R4T3 to one of the smaller side branches on the main leader if you would prefer Shanxi Li to stay as the main leader. The nice thing about bark grafting is the diameters don’t need to match very well at all for success.
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Thanks yall.
Yeah, I know having two leaders is not ideal.
I have two chicos, but that jujube is so good that I don’t want to sacrifice one of those unless I think the R4T3 is worth it. Also the Sjanxi Li flowers either later or earlier than the Chico(I can’t remember which), but there might be a pollination issue between chio and shanxi li regarding timing. I don’t know, but the Shanxi li has been in the ground for a couple years with no fruit yet. I really want to try a Shanxi Li, so I thought grafting on this might help. Of course I don’t know when r4t3 flowers either, so…
If r4t3 is good, I’ll probably sacrifice one Chico by taking scions on the two leader tree, and then cutting that leader back.
But maybe I’ll consider grafting to another area instead of a leader as you suggested. Something to think about anyhow.
I started about 28 seeds in a tray early December and got one to sprout 3.5 weeks later. It’s now been almost 6 weeks and the total sprouted is 2. These were seeds from my small 2nd year HJ and SC trees. My poor result is also probably due to the fact that I crushed a handful when breaking the shells.
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Did you stratify them?
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In my opinion R4T3 is an okay jujube. It’s pretty and unusual and tastes okay. Shanxi Li and R4T3 take their time to fruit and neither are very prolific.
I have several tress that have more than one leader. They do okay and usually are a lower bushier tree. I don’t mind that except it allows the deer easier dining. A taller tree with one trunk is usually more aesthetic and probably stronger too.
Shanxi li is a bit stingy with fruit I guess until it becomes an older tree which I cannot attest to. I just have a several year old grafted branch of R4T3 and only a handful of fruit from it. Not trying to burst your bubble but keep your Chico branches!!
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It makes a big difference in germination. I’ve had some minimally damaged seeds germinate but they are pretty much done for if crushed.
I have planted seeds that I’ve just eaten the fruit and they jump right out of the ground.
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I share your enthusiasm for growing and tasting new jujube varieties, and I’ve often grafted in less-than-ideal spots for trial purposes, with the intention of re-grafting that variety elsewhere if it proves to be one that I’d like to have more of. Do you have any other older jujube trees? Just asking because I’ve found that you’re more likely to get fruit sooner if you graft to a more mature tree. In the case of R4T3 and Shanxi Li, my experience has been the same as @k8tpayaso - they are both okay jujubes in terms of fruit quality, but they haven’t been precocious or highly productive. I suspect that has more to do with how well adapted they are to my climate than any lack of pollination, since I’ve grown them on trees with many other varieties grafted to adjacent branches.
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I have 2 Chico, 1 honey jar, and a Shanxi li.
1 Chico is in the back yard with the honey jar, and the other is in the front with the Shanxi li.
Honey jar has been in the ground the longest, but only Chico in the back yard next to it has fruited thus far.
I’m in DFW Tx, zone 8A. We are real hot in the summer and have real long growing seasons.
what time of year. Did they get natural stratification over the winter?
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