I’ve now read all the papers reporting genetic distances among pecans in collections in the U.S. and in China. They all suffer from grave errors in both choice of laboratory tests and analysis of test results. “Garbage in” + “more garbage” = lots of garbage! The stated results in those papers should be ignored.
Discussion of the analysis errors can be found here:
Decades of miscomputation in genomic clades and distances. IJCSA, August 2022, Volume 12, Number 4.
The only papers worth reading currently are the ones on mapping the pecan/hickory genomes. DNA tests using markers were capable of determining parent/child relationships. Not much else was valid or useful.
With that said, Carya Myristiciformis sits in a slot intermediate between apocarya and true carya. It readily crosses with both groups so long as ploidy is observed.
But that is enough pecan in a persimmon thread. We could use some genome maps of persimmon.
They were used as “verification” of some and to dispute others. Notice the lapse of logic in believing that the production of some matches verified the methodologies. Further, the laboratory method (SSR counts) is now known to produce marker counts when none are present. So I’ll repeat my statement that “the stated results in those papers should be ignored”.
You can put -16 F for both Kujinaja (change the name please, Richard) and Bliznetsnaja. Winter 2014-15 was -16 F at England’s Orchard and Nursery. (Cliff England text 2.21.2023)
-16 F clung for 48-hours there.
Cliff assured me that burying the union 1 foot will never kill a persimmon and is the only reason those kaki’s and other tender hybrids are to survive. I’m going to plant all Gora’s here and bury the unions and see what I can get.
Nothing has rotted or leaned as a result of planting like this.
Believe me I separate all my thoughts from Jrd when speaking to each of you. He and I don’t get along, that’s it.
And I know what my interest is and it is only future-breeding only of persimmons hardiness and size and for that lying low PCNA-hybrid to present itself, here.
No need for anyones’ concern but my own which I will take care of my own things’… as will " Jrd do his own things… believe me .
To be certain that it is a hybrid, you must do a PCR test.
To know the percentage of hybridization, it is necessary to make a karyotype.
All other calculations are assumptions but not facts.
Crossing overs and other mutations are not taken into account.
With the mix of genes you could have a cold hardy hybrid with only 5% Virginiana. If only the cold resistance gene is transmitted. It’s the lottery of life.
The real name is Derevienko.
There is this female Derevienko in Cliff who is not the universal pollifier.
After all, it is universal only in name.
I have several friends who have recovered Taishu, it will quickly multiply.
Pictures magically show up in my inbox like scions sometimes do in my mailbox.
Here’s the 2/23 version! As always, corrections and updates are welcome.
[see update below]
First draft of the relationships in the list posted yesterday. Many nodes are yet to be labeled. Not all parents are known. I will post updates from time to time.
[see update below]
Overall this is great work. But you should probably label the graph “Ancestry of Reported Hybrid Persimmons in the U.S.” You are normally meticulous about proof. But the entire left half of this graph represents varieties reported by one grower and descendant from one supposed kaki. The grower, who admittedly has made huge contributions to the advancement of persimmon culture in the U.S., is nevertheless known to be sloppy in his identification of varieties as hybrid and has had a stroke that has demonstrably reduced his reliability as a reporter. The supposed kaki “Hokkaido” is known to be grown by only two people – the named grower and one other. The other grower says that he never produced a DV x DK hybrid. So at minimum, the entire left side of the graph is “not proven.”
I can only imagine what serious Ukranian breeders must think. They worked on persimmon breeding for almost a century. In all that time, they produced 1 direct cross of Virginiana x Kaki. Meanwhile in 3-4 years (2012-15), Cliff produced >40 which have been sitting unheralded in his nursery for the past decade.
@Barkslip , @EliindaUP , @PharmerDrewee , @tonyOmahaz5 , and anyone else with substantial winters who wants to chime in.
Please think about these three categories of persimmon cold hardiness:
None
Moderate
Very
What temperature ranges (°F) would you assign to each?
If it’s any help, here is a graph of cold hardiness temperatures from the most recent list:
IMO, you can break it into 10 degree segments with some that are only hardy down to 10F, some hardy to 0F, some to -10F, a few hybrids to -20F, and very cold tolerant down to -30F. To the best of my knowledge, D.V. is killed at temps below -40F but that is subject to verification. I would probably use a cold tolerance rating of
1 ~ >=10F
2 ~10F to 0F
3 ~ 0F to -10F
4 ~ -10F to -20F
5 ~ -20F to -30F
6 ~ >-30F
Map verification shows that each 10 degrees a tree can stand increases the cultivation range about 8 degrees latitude subject to topography where mountains affect the climate. I can for example usually grow anything that is hardy down to 0F in the bottom edge of Tennessee 4 miles from the Alabama state line. This year we had a freeze the 20th of December that went down to -4F. In the past, I have seen -12F once and about 70 years ago we had -20F.
0 F
-10 F
-20 F
(hybrids only)
I could, but from the many discussions here I’ve decided to only use 3.
Note that I’m going to leave all the recorded values in the spreadsheet as is, but use the 3 broad ranges for color-coding.
It’s been reported that Super Rosseyanka is a bud sport as Pamjat Pasenkova and Sovietski also have.
@disc4tw
Superossiyanka is a documented bud sport of Rossiyanka.
It appears there are two different Sovietski at England’s Orchard. One is an older D. kaki female (HF 3.49) while the newer is a D.hybrid (1.3), documented elsewhere as a seedling of Superossiyanka.
Pamjat Pasenkova is also documented as a seedling of Superossiyanka.
The one at Clifford’s house is a hybrid he said as is the one at the farm. Same fruit on both.
It was an easy error I’m sure. He said to me , ‘no man they’re both hybrids with Large fruit’.
Cliff is a “no or yes man.” His catalogue may say Kaki on the at home row but it was a written-error.
Whew! I’m glad that’s cleared up!
Now is there any chance Cliff made the same mistake with Hokkaido?
“Written error” still remains the most likely explanation for Cliff’s 40+ Hokkaido x DV “hybrids.”
I had ‘Hokkaido’ from Cliff when he first offered it - maybe 20 years ago. I THINK he said it was the cold hardiest pure kaki he had. It didn’t make it through it’s first KS winter.
“Sovietski” occurs in this updated list
TREES and Scion wood List 2022 DEC Farms 1, 2 and 3 UPDATE.pdf (684.9 KB)
on page 16, Home Farm Row 3:
- Sovietski Kaki persimmon 2015
and on page 1, Farm #3 Row 1:
- Sovietski hybrid FEMALE 2015
I don’t know whether they are from the same scionwood or even the same supplier.
England’s has been a USDA registered nursery for decades. I don’t know if they were receiving persimmon material directly from the Ukrainian research institutions. Certainly they are eligible.
