List of hybrid persimmon species available in USA

General Fruit Growing
#42

I learned a “hybrid” is between species or genera, a “cross” is between clones and or cultivar’s of the same species. That was 40 years ago. Is this still accurate nowadays?

#43

There are three ways “hybrid” is used today:

  1. To refer to a cross between inbred lines aka maize hybrids
  2. To refer to a cross between geographic variants of the same species
  3. To refer to crosses between different but usually related species.

Very few hybrids across genera are viable. Dispyros Virginiana crosses with Dispyros Kaki are inter-species crosses so #3 above. While not relevant to the discussion, amphidiploids represent another class of hybrids that have historically affected many modern crop plants. The brassica family has several amphidiploids.

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#44

Well Randy, that definition is still used in formal publications and islands of informed horticulturists. But all bets are off on chat boards and retail sales. There is even fear-based advertising among the organically-faithful regarding “hybrids” – that are actually crosses.

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#45

Sure! Shall I list you as the source, or ?

#46

I have another field for your database. Could you add “alias” or something similar? Several persimmons are known by 2 or 3 different names. As an example, Picudo and Costata are the same.

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#47

Yes. That will be fine.

Tony

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#48

You may not have understood it, but several people who show their hybrids from Ukraine or not have received it from me.
It gives perspective. I am sending Schistian gold this year.

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#49

I’m not in zone 9.
I am in 7b.

For me one variety = one tree.
I don’t play multi-grafting, especially for persimmons.

The numbers correspond to the names of the varieties, because they are not named, something like 100-42.

All are d.kaki x d.virginiana hybrids.

You can also add
Rosseyanka 2 (Nikita’s gift sister who makes female flowers)

Rosseyanka’s daughter (male and female flowers)

Nikita’s gift son (male flowers only)

The realm of possibilities is vast.

#50

I don’t have the Kimshkaya 55 cross, if you have it I’m interested.
I will be surprised if it is not a hybrid, it is one of the most resistant persimmons noted during the great cold snap of 2008/2009.

Another whose origin I don’t know, which bears the features of a hybrid, Directna 7. The Directna 5 looks more like an Asian khaki.

#51

Here is what I’ve catalogued so far. I am little more than the tech-writer for this project, so please provide corrections and discuss them if needed. New entries are also welcome if you can provide a U.S. source. At some point I’ll provide access to the google sheet I’m using but will still make updates upon request.

Name Aliases Parentage % kaki % virginiana %unknown Sex(es) Parthenocarpic Astringent Estimated °F Cold Hardiness Fruit Degree Days Typical mass (grams) Notes U.S. Sources
400-5 Rosseyanka × OP 25% 25% 50% male ? -33 England’s Orchard
Bozhy Dar ? both ? ? Threefold Farm
Costata ? ? ? ? ?
Chuchupaka both PCA -20 100 ?
Dar Sofiyivky Kolhospnytsia D.k. × D.v. 50% 50% 0% female PCA -20 Tony in Omaha
Dr. Kazas Nikitaskaya Bordovaya × OP 12.5% 12.5% 75% female PCA -22 ?
Gora Goverla female PCA -8 ?
Gora Rogers female PCA -8 ?
Gora Roman Kosh Nikitaskaya Bordovaya × OP 12.5% 12.5% 75% female ? PCA -8 ?
JBT-06 female PCA -22 England’s Orchard
Journey Unknown 1 × Unknown 2 12.5% 37.5% 50% female ? ? England’s Orchard
Kuji Naja Costata × Rosseymale ? PVNA ? England’s Orchard
Mikkusu JT-02 female PCA -22 England’s Orchard
Nikitskaya Bordovaya Nikitas Gift Rosseyanka × OP 25% 25% 50% female yes PCA -10 Trees of Antiquity
Omaha Prok D.v. × 400-5 12.5% 62.5% 25% ? ? -20 Tony in Omaha
Pamjat Pasenkova Rosseyanka bud sport 50% 50% 0% female PCA -10 better resistance to late-winter and early-spring frosts ?
Rosseyanka no.213 D.v. × form 48 or 145 D.k. 50% 50% 0% female PCA -13 England’s Orchard
Rosseymale Rosseyanka × ? male PCA -22 England’s Orchard
Sestronka NB-21 N.B. seedling × D.v. female PCA 0 England’s Orchard
Sosnovskaya D.k × D.v. ? female PCA -20 ?
? Unknown 1 Great Wall D.k. × Rosseymale 25% 25% 50% ? ? ? England’s Orchard
? Unknown 2 Early Jewel D.v. × OP 50% 50% ? ? ?
Zima Khurma NB-02 Nikitaskaya Bordovaya × ? female PCA ? England’s Orchard
? Rosseyanka × Honan Red ? PCA 0 ?
? Costata × Rosseymale ? PVNA -20 England’s Orchard
#52

NB= Nikita’s gift

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#53

@Richard . It is Prok X 400-5. Not Prox X 400-5.

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#54

@ Richard,
Ryan’s idea would benefit a lot of growers with shorter growing seasons. Someone near Cliff England who could sit with him for a day or so could probably fill this data easily. Either compared with a well known variety or list as early, mid or late season ripening. Of all the data this would be the most important one for northern growers.
Thanks for your energy and innovative approach.
Dennis
Kent, Wa

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#55

I believe @DennisD makes a good point about the needs of “backyard” growers vs. agriculturists. The latter have a working knowledge of Growing Degree Days but the backyard growers do not. The backyard growers are the largest interest group.

What do you folks think about focusing on harvest dates in 4 locations with different climates and at least one member to provide data? For example:
Wayne County TN
central KY
Omaha NB
Tracy CA

??

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#56

That is workable, but I’m in southern Tennessee just above Florence, AL. Same point though, my climate is very similar to conditions across north Alabama, Tennessee, north Georgia, both Carolinas, and north Mississippi. The only problem is that I am just now starting to plant persimmons. I have plenty of wild trees of the tetraploid DV variant.

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#57

I think exact dates are too variable. It’s more than sufficient to divide ripening times into 7 categories:
very early
early
early mid-season
mid-season
late mid-season
late
very late

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#58

Yes, that’s an excellent point. And then we’d use those per location?

#59

I think it’s enough to have those designated in one “middle” location by a grower who has many different varieties fruiting under similar conditions. Check what @BobVance did for jujubes, that’s exactly what I have in mind.

If a variety changes one category (or maybe even two, which is very unlikely) in a different location, it’s not a big deal. People in northern location will just avoid varieties ripening in a number of late categories, depending on how far north they are.

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#60

@Barkslip ,@tonyOmahaz5 ,@Fusion_power
What do you think about this?

(Stan) I think it’s enough to have those designated in one “middle” location by a grower who has many different varieties fruiting under similar conditions.

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#61

What source would ya’ll use for growing degree days? I would use weather spark. Do ya’ll consider it accurate? Cuenca Climate, Weather By Month, Average Temperature (Spain) - Weather Spark