I have been using M111 as my main rootstock variety since starting my orchard in 2013. I added a few more fruit trees every year to fill out my orchard area. I’m maxed out now , area wise. Going over fruit production and vigor of the actual tree I noticed a few things. I know different apple varieties have different growing habits - spreading, upright, etc… My main observation was the actual trunk diameter.
Some M111 ‘s trunks are nice sized and very sturdy. Yet there are some of my M111’s that are no where near as thick and sturdy as other M111’s planted the same year or the following year. This effects fruit production and viability. Very thin and look like they are 3 or 4 years old not 10 years old.
In fact I am taking out some of the M111’s next spring because some of these trees still have not produced any fruit or very little fruit over the years. Even though they are 10 years in the ground. There are M111’s right next to each other with totally different trunk diameters- I have each fruit tree 15’ apart.
Has anyone else noticed this or had this happen to them in their orchard?
Can anyone else on this site that can possibly explain this ? Maybe even a pomologist?
Thank you for your reply and input.
Interesting topic. I don’t have any answers but I look forward to seeing what others think.
There are many factors that affect a trees vigor and without seeing your site I cannot give an answer, but I don’t think your problem has much to do with rootstock. Trees that runt out can do so for various reasons, in my own nursery the only apple variety that I’ve had trouble with is Arkansas Black and that is with the high spurring strain that Adams County Nursery sells. In this case, I know the problem is the varieties extreme precocity and strong tendency to put all energy into spur and fruit formation instead of vegetative growth, even if I knock off all the flowers as soon as they show in spring. Then they put it into flowers for the next year. Cutting off all the spurs helps.
You need to be sure that the runted trees are not varieties that tend to fruit young and you need to check the conditions of the soil (that they aren’t in wet spots) and see if you have wooly apple aphids on the roots of affected trees or crown gall.
If you can’t find anything like that, maybe the problem is selective damage of nematodes- so you’d need to have an expert look at that.
On the other hand the rootsock of some of your trees might not be what they are supposed to be and something completely dwarfing. Nurseries often screw up- I know, I’m a nursery owner.
I bought most of the from three different nurseries. Mostly from one nursery. I can see that actually if it were a big nursery- I have had that happen before- that and the wrong variety being sent. A few are from is a small nursery and only a few employees so you would think the QC would be tighter than say a Stark Brothers or Gurney.
I though maybe something was wrong with maybe one or so but I have more than that along with other M111 trees that the rootstocks are a lot thicker, like they should be at that age. They blossom but no fruit. I have pollinators as well as mason bee houses. Maybe it is the actual soil or a disease issue. I did not let them flower the first 3-4 years. If they did I took the blossoms off the tree so it would not runt.
There has been no visible insect issues. I have even dug up some areas around them to see what the roots look like. Nothing like root rot. I did have two other trees stay green but no growth, there were no roots on them when I took them out. They were in another are of my orchard and in a more of a shady area. My fault for trying to plant a fruit tree there. All of them are in a well drained area. No wet feet that rots the roots.
I can post some pics if that would help for some clarification.
I ordered some nematode products today to add to the soil. See if that helps.
Thank you for your suggestions.
I have grown literally thousands of trees on 111 and have not had the difficulties you describe. So have you dug up any struggling trees to see how the roots look? I suggest if you suspect nematodes you put it in the hands of a university entomologist for diagnosis- it won’t cost that much. Start by contacting you county cooperative extension, but first find out if nematodes can be tree specific towards apples. I know nothing about that.
I’ll look at any pictures and offer my free advice- it must be worth that much.
Just a guess…but the soil conditions may be quite different in some of the planting holes?
I will post some photos and see what you all think. See if I can give some comparison photos of regular M111 and the thin M111 trunks. I think it has to be something " simple" enough to fix/cure. It is odd to think that just 15’ away the soil is so different. Strange things happen when you start messing with soil and trying to grow things.
Soil conditions or nutrients out of whack. Perhaps. Maybe Alan is right maybe nematodes. I will dig some soil out and have it analyzed.
Thanks to all.
I noticed in my field, I definitely have veins of heavy clay so soil conditions 10 feet apart could definitely differ. It may be a possibility for you.
I have two big trees on MM111 that are at least 9 years old and have never borne a fruit. McIntosh and Jonathan. I do prune summer for height and to shorten some laterals and winter but that’s a ridiculously long time. Others fruited much sooner. My old fashioned limbertwig is on MM111 and has about 35 fruit. Maybe 5 years old.
Very frustrating isn’t it!
It is VERY frustrating. You are so right.
I’ll be 67 in April. No more MM111 for me. The reason is painfully obvious. I would like to see some fruit in my lifetime.
Then again (sorry) they are large, beautiful, well anchored trees.
I feel your pain, literally. Most of my M111’s have not gotten out of control, height wise. There are only a couple that need to be cut back. I plan on cutting them back down to be more manageable next year. I have some interstem EML9/M111 apple trees. They are a perfect size and give a lot of fruit. I wish I had all my apple trees on that interstem combination.
I agree the interstem grafting sounds ideal. I also wish I had known about it so many years ago.
The things we learn as we get older.
Agree, I’m ahead of you and may never get to eat any fruits from new M111 grafts.
That’s my thinking for buying several Geneva roots over past 7 years (but so many have not proven they can handle neglect and a lot have died).
So, I’ve got B10 and EMLA106 roots on order for 2024 grafting.
Had a potted M-111 that was at least 2 years old when I planted it in 2016…FINALLY it bloomed and I got 5 nice Fuji apples off it this year. On M-111. Only the variety Niedzwetzkyana bloomed 4th leaf on M-111 out of several apple trees I’ve had or have on this rootstock. (But the seedling tree planted beside it bloomed (seedling an unbranched whip) a year sooner…and is over 20 feet tall.) (M-7 is slow but less so than M111). Seedlings grafted at about 1/4 or 3/8 inch…seem to bear on average soon as M111.)
I have 111 in my nursery and some varieties begin bearing the third year after I plant the whips. However some varieties take a very long time on the rootstock, or even on M7. There is no perfect rootstock, but stories of waiting a decade for ANY fruit from a Jonathon or Macintosh involves more than the fact they are on 111 in my opinion.
First of all, if you are unsure of what you are doing, the best thing is to do as little pruning as possible until trees start to bear fruit. Worry about size once fruiting happens. If you don’t have enough space to do this, than you clearly need a more dwarfing rootstock.
Go to guides and read what I’ve written about pruning and you will see the method I suggest for limiting pruning until after trees begin to fruit.
I have found that some trees on MM111 have fruited much sooner than others. I don’t think it’s a matter of pruning, as I manage trees across the orchard similarly. At the same time, it makes sense to me to pick rootstocks that may produce fruit sooner if that is my intent.
Added photo of my fruitless McIntosh
I grow Jonathon in my nursery, and from your description of cutting back branches, I would bet money that your pruning is part of the problem. Of course more dwarfing rootstocks are more forgiving of pruning and other things that encourage excessive vegetative vigor, but Jonathon is not Northern Spy, which is a variety that can take that long to fruit on vigorous rootstocks unless managed with high skill and using techniques like pulling branches below horizontal and early summer removal of resulting upright shoots. Of course you are right that different varieties fruit earlier than others on any given rootstock and that it is wise to select rootstocks with this in mind- the literature tends to understate this, including nursery catalogues. .
I’m only trying to help you understand best orchard management practices. I spend about 50 hours a week managing fruit trees and have over a half century of strong relationship with fruit trees. Take my advice or leave it, I’m posting it for all members of this forum who I don’t want misled by non-definitive anecdotal info. Sometimes such info is really only a form of venting frustration- fruit trees can be tricky and very difficult to figure out.
There are benefits and liabilities of using 111, which is why an M9 interstem is sometimes used to reduce its vigor and vastly accelerate production, but my Jonathon apples begin producing apples 4 years after planting as 1 year bare root trees. I don’t think your different climate and soil could in themselves delay fruiting for that long- it doesn’t add up to my own experience.
The more vigorous the rootstock the more skill it takes to prune well. You can train a crew how to prune trees on full dwarf in a few minutes. It can take years to truly master pruning of more vigorous apple trees. But you don’t have to be a master to coax earliest possible fruiting. There are about 3 essential rules and/or tricks to it.
Remove all branches more than a third the diameter of the trunk as soon as possible, spring prune useless uprights and tape down the ones you need (for secondary, fruit bearing branches) to horizontal, force upright scaffolds to an angle just above horizontal- maybe 75 degrees, so they don’t bend way down from the first crop as may happen if they are completely horizontal. For the least precocious varieties you can go ahead and train all wood below horizontal if you are in a rush. Just don’t allow the riot of upright shoots steal all the light from the spur leaves, which is why late spring pruning helps because that is when trees decide if they are going to invest in fruit buds. This decision is made by the individual spurs and based primarily on receiving adequate sunlight on the leaves that directly serve the spurs. Vegetative wood is 1 year wood and most varieties do not fruit on such wood- nor do they appear to provide energy for the spurs below.
What are the scions on the low growth trees? If the scion has weak vigor that could be responsible for the small tree size.
I would think the trunk would be thicker below the graft. Weak vigor would effect the upper part above the graft. Maybe I am thinking incorrectly about the union of the graft on the actual M111 rootstock.