Morus Alba and Morus Nigra from Turkey

Bambarbia · September 15, 2019, 4:24pm

I have 1.5-years-old seeds of Morus Alba and Morus Nigra which I received from Turkey; Morus Alba seeds are 1.5x-2x bigger than whatever I’ve seed from brand companies, about 3mm, and Morus Nigra are 4mm. All this time I kept it in my home-office, at 22.5C - 24C

So I decided just to try without waiting, 10 seeds each, on the cactus soil from local store.

Here is photo of Morus Alba after 10 days, without pre-soaking and without any stratification applied; and no any sterilization(!)

Two seeds on left-bottom just sprouted:

I put seeds in polystyrene cup (with holes at bottom) on top of cactus soil and put cup in a water for about 16 hours till I saw moisture (even water) on top, then I put cup in a plastic zip-bag and fully zipped it and left on windowsill in a shade; this is the cheapest ever solution.

As a new member, I can upload single photo only… Morus Nigra seeds are from the same supplier, in the same order batch, just in different zip-bag. In the same sowing batch. Same temp, same moisture, same soil same unsterilized, etc. But they became covered with mold/fungi in few days; I think maybe not washed well enough by supplier? I opened bag, left it to dry out, and within about a week I was spraying surface with hydrogene peroxide maybe 10 times already, put it in zip-bag, than saw again mold, sprayed it, put in a bag, etc.

Right now I put Morus Nigra seeds again in zip-bag, but soil moisture is maybe 3x less now, after all this drastic abuse with 3% Hydrogene Peroxide seeds seem alive and not-empty, “fat”.

From my experience with cactuses growing from seeds, I was ignoring totally any white-cotton-like looking fungi and mold and putting it under 37C heat under artificial UV light during day, and 19C at night, and all were healthy overgrowing mold, and I never ever tried any stratification. Let’s see… will update later.

Interestingly,

Morus Alba seeds are big, now I understand why some nurseries call it “Morus Nigra ‘Alba’”, https://www.lecooke.com/Images/Shades/Mulberry/White-Persian-Fruiting-Mulberry(RGB).pdf, I have grafted white mulberry from Turkey (grafted!) which leaves are huge and shiny like in this PDF picture
Seeds from same supplier (with same fungi and mold spores), “white” doesn’t have any mold/fungi growth, and ‘black’ does have

Next time I’ll try to sterilize… but, for example, I kept Morus Nigra cuttings in 99% alcohol for an hour but it didn’t kill fungi/mold; now I understand it needs less moisture for rooting (I was using 99% humidity in past, and lost it all)

Livinginawe · September 15, 2019, 5:09pm

I am a little surprised that L.E. Cooke calls it Morus nigra ‘Alba’, as it clearly appears that it isn’t a Morus nigra (they are generally fairly knowledgeable). If anyone has this particular plant, or any other claiming to be “white fruited” Morus nigra, I would greatly appreciate a leaf or two so I can verify whether it is or not (by microscopic analysis of nuclei size).

Bambarbia · September 15, 2019, 5:27pm

I’d send you some leaves for analysis but not sure if it can arrive from Canada,

Bambarbia · September 15, 2019, 5:28pm

“one image per post”

Livinginawe · September 15, 2019, 6:11pm

I believe there are no restrictions that would prohibit you from sending a leaf (or a portion of a large leaf) from Canada to the US (vegetable and fruits are not restricted, and plants to a limited degree). It just needs to be placed between a couple layers of dampened paper towel, placed inside a Ziplock bag, and mailed in a regular envelope. If you are willing, please private message me and I will give you my address.

Bambarbia · September 19, 2019, 12:50pm

Turkish White Mulberry (possibly Morus Alba) update, 100% humidity, 3 weeks:

Turkish Black Mulberry (possibly Motus Nigra) update, soil dried out to fight with fungi, but it is 100% humidity for last few days, the same plastic zip bag; no signs of sprouting, but visible signs of seeds being alive (I think I can see through seeds’ shell); no mold/fungus anymore (almost)

P.S. no any stratification! seeds are about 1.5 years old; I believe “stratification” is another hype, applicable only to real farmers who use seedbed in the field in Spring; could be exceptions, such as Mammillaria theresae (cactus) which I was unable to grow; rumours say that this cactus will sprout only from old seeds, kept in a fridge for many years (I should still have it in a fridge )

Bambarbia · September 19, 2019, 12:59pm

seeds are almost dust-like; what I know is this: this specie possibly have internal “clock”, put it on top of sterilized soil (or sand), 100% humidity, wait few weeks, if doesn’t sprout then dry it, put in a fridge for few months, take out from fridge put in 100% humidity again, and etc.; in a loop. I tried… didn’t work for me… but at that time I didn’t know about GA3 etc.

pileta · September 19, 2019, 5:56pm

Would you please share this turkish supplier?

Bambarbia · September 20, 2019, 12:43pm

Here is his eBay profile:
https://www.ebay.com/usr/tr_m502

I bought cuttings from him too, real Morus Nigra. They sometimes call it “sour black mulberry” to separate from “sweet black mulberry” (M. Alba)

Bambarbia · September 20, 2019, 12:48pm

Idea

What if we saw mix of Morus Alba and Morus Nigra, let’s say 10 seeds of Alba and 3 seeds of Nigra, in the same small cup? And do not separate them for few years. They will be naturally grafted by roots and their trunks can become naturally grafted too. If Albas grow too fast you can trim it almost to the ground. “Root grafting” is possible in the wild. What if Morus Nigra seedling will grow 10x faster?

Bambarbia · October 26, 2019, 12:54am

UPDATE: Morus Nigra (Turkey) were showing that they are alive; but still not sprouting; so I decided to put whole pot into fridge (about 4 degrees Celsius) for about two weeks. Then I partially recovered light in a basement, put some seedlings and plants under T5 bulbs, and noticed immediately: they grow crazily!!! Including Morus Alba (Turkey), and Albizia (sprouted instantly under light, and you can see two weeks grow on this picture, after two months of nothing):

Morus Alba (possibly) from Turkey, and Albizia Julibrissin

Morus Nigra (or better!) from Turkey

And here is my T5 lighting, 16 hours a day:

So that, “requires stratification” is just a hype… applicable to big farms only, if you plan to use daylight in Spring then better to stratify in advance, in a fridge.

Morus Nigra seeds are about 18 months old (at least); kept in plastic bag in room temperature.

Bambarbia · October 28, 2019, 11:27pm

I posted my update on Turkish Morus Nigra only three days ago!

Three days ago:

October 25, 2019, 7:41PM

Now:

October 28, 2019, 7:11PM

And look at this creature in centre, very long tiny hairs, are those really roots? or maybe some fungi (symbiotic helpers)?

My next experiment would be to plant Morus Nigra in centre, and few Morus Alba Tatarica around; to create root-grafted plant; to have naturally grafted symbiotic creature. It happens in the wild, I am not the first discovering it.

Still in fully closed zip-lock, 100% humidity.

P.S. From 10 old random seeds, without any any pre-wash & pre-soaking, using only hydrogen peroxide spray first weeks to clean seeds from some fungi (possibly seeds contained sugar). I think even 8 awaken; all seeds look healthy & alive.

RichardRoundTree · October 29, 2019, 4:07am

Thats definitely a Beneficial mycorrhizal fungi. Congratulations on the sprouts!

Bambarbia · October 29, 2019, 1:02pm

Yes, mycorrhizal fungi, I googled-images, this one on top of a page is perfect match: https://fungi.com/blogs/articles/get-associated-with-mycorrhizae

From my past huge experience growing cactuses from seeds: my first attempts were to sterilize everything, including boiling soil in a water (no microwaves were available at that time); putting seeds to very dark potassium permanganate solution for 1-2 days. By accident (by laziness) I found germination rate and even growth speed were amazing with just peat moss mixed with sand. Recently, I was trying new recipe: SumiSoil from https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/garden/supplies/soil/59368-sumisoil which is Japanese ceramic-coated charcoal, 100% sterile (almost), and charcoal has anti-bacterial properties. Although plants (cactuses: ariocarpus, astrophytum, etc.) were absolutely healthy and germination rate was over 90%, they were growing at least 10x slower than seeds in regular unsterilized Cactus soil mix from retail store.

Potassium permanganate helps: seeds get washed, sugar from surface removed, I had much less nasty creatures; and I used the same light-rose solution to bottom-soak seedling pots until I see moisture on surface: only bottom-soak, so that soil doesn’t get compressed. I noticed it doesn’t really has impact on beneficial fungi: I had the same tiny white threads helping sprouted seedling to get upright instantly.

I tried another solution for cactus seeds found recently on internet: to use (sterilized, washed) sand in styrofoam cup, without holes in a cup, put water till almost top, put seeds in a water, wait till water dissipate and seeds are on top surface (sand), put in zip-lock, etc. Yes, it worked, but seeds were in centre of cup… germinated, but growth rate was very slow in comparison… fertilizers didn’t help. But benefit was: very easy to separate seedlings and replant it in regular soil without any damage to roots.

Nothing worked as good as non-sterilized soil from retail store, and pre-soaking in potassium permanganate (which is indeed “potassium”). Or without pre-soaking, but still using rose-colour solution for bottom-soaking pots with seeds.

I can see some benefits of stratification: if you are not in a rush, and you have rare seeds with germination spawn over time, you can pre-germinate in a fridge and then plant one single plant in one single pot (or directly in backyard).

P.S. My experiment with seeds above doesn’t include any potassium permanganate; soil was from retail store, ProMix, mycorrhizal fungi in it; I only heavily used 3% hydrogen peroxide on Morus Nigra seeds daily, first two weeks, to kill some brown-colour fungi. I think I didn’t kill fungi; just washed seed shells from sugars.

P.P.S. Forgot to add about importance of UV light: when I just started with cactuses, I read that UV light has huge benefits (killing bacteria, fungal infections, etc); and temperature shifts are important for germination; and that fluorescent bulbs generate UV so that I use only “bad” fluorescent bulbs (from LeeValley), and plastic boxes / zip-locks instead of glass (because plastic is transparent to UV). 30-35 degrees Celsius during day, and 20C at night - best for cactuses; but in my environment for Mulberry it is probably 25C-27C during day (ziplock gets heated from light above; it is really like warming sunlight, don’t try to save on watts-efficiency) and 21C at night.

Bambarbia · October 30, 2019, 4:38am

Here is photo of Cornelian Cherry / Cornus Mas, put in a pot almost the same time as Morus Nigra (first week September)

Soil: regular “MycoActive” Pro-Mix from Canadian Tire. Seeds were not washed/sterilized; “as is”.

As you can see… some helpful creatures creating oxygen and maybe neutralizing nitrogen etc.

This pot was all this time on a windowsill at North. Putting it into basement T5-lab today, to see if seeds will germinate in a week or not:

Bambarbia · October 30, 2019, 5:50am

P.S. I think I planted Mulberries in regular cactus soil, and Cornelian Cherry in Pro-Mix (larger pieces; green creatures). Cactus soil supposed to be sterile (or “10x more sterile”) than rough myco-active Pro-Mix. Watered by bottled water (almost sterile).

RichardRoundTree · October 30, 2019, 7:12pm

See that picture the green looks like fresh water algae to me, Which isnt bad but may take up some nutrients out of the soil and i may scoop it off if it didnt bother the sprouts (When algae dies it can go anaerobic which may not be good for sprouts?). Im a big fan of the pro-mix for seedlings and like adding perlite and coir fibre to it for cactus.

Those two sprouts definitely have mycorrhizae growing on them however, are they cornus mas? Are you going to plant these in the ground in a high tunnel or do container gardening?

Bambarbia · November 2, 2019, 6:22pm

Picture with algae and two elongated seeds: Cornus Mas ( Cornelian Cherry). Seeds became very thick, almost cracked, but still don’t germinate. This is really hard wood (sinking in a water?) and seeds too; I didn’t use any scarification.

Why? Just experimenting. Last year I bought grafter Ukrainian selection “Elegant”, Cornelian Cherry. It overwintered very well in a pot, started budding out in Spring, I planted it into ground, and it didn’t grow at all! So I removed it, cleaned, cut out a little (it is in a fridge, in zip-lock) so that I can possibly re-graft some cuttings to save the plant. So, I need some rootstock… although no space in small backyard for full-grown Cornelian cherry. But I can plant at sister’s cottages.