Planning on setting out some fruit trees in a month or so while winter is still here. Specifically, Apple and Cherry to start. I’m already late to the game for preparing my soil I know so am looking for input for specifics that I need to do now. I am in the Piedmont area of NC and have mostly tightly packed clay soil. I have read on other sites that I really shouldn’t add anything to the hole or deep into the soil though I am considering mixing in some Gypsum (not Lime due to current pH). I do have a soil analysis from last year to share and it doesn’t look great for growing fruit trees.
I have included my soil analysis here but my biggest concerns are high pH and the low Phosphorus. I’m not sure how the other [mineral] values align for growing fruit trees but am trying to do some research.
I have an abundant supply of aged and composting wood chips that I will be able to add to the very top layer.
One of the problems I have is, I use a 24 inch auger on my tractor to dig the hole. I have read to dig only deep enough to allow the root system (probably planting bare root trees) but a good bit larger in diameter but to also spike and otherwise break up the hard surface of the hole walls and bottom so as not to create a sort of ‘root barrier’.
Not really sure how much gypsum I should add to each hole or how to mix it in well. Once I dig down 4-6 inches, the clay becomes pretty clunky and does not break up easily.
I also want to put a ring barrier around each tree, at least to start, to keep invasive ground cover from taking root. I have a lot of wire grass in my area and that stuff is incredibly difficult to eradicate once it has taken hold. I figure going 6-8 inches deep with that barrier which should be enough to keep the wire grass from invading.
Hope this isn’t information overload but wanting to provide as much detail as possible to get the best feedback I can.
I am hoping to plant by March. Being bare root, I want to get them in the ground by the time the growing season starts.
Another method of lowering pH, which is a bit unconventional, at least in the US, is to use urine as an amendment. It is actually quite common around the globe and adds several minerals to the soil. Of course, how it affect the pH is somewhat dependent on each individual’s body as it can range from as low as 5.0 to as high as 8.0. Simple pH test strips can verify pretty closely.
Also, adding vinegar to the urine will assist in lowering the pH of the mixture.
I will plan on getting some elemental sulfur as well for the longer term planning as I will be adding more fruit trees each year.
Hi Greg,
Your plan to avoid wire grass invasion would also prevent the natural growth of any fruit tree roots that really do need to grow outward as well as downward! If you read more about how trees grow you will find that a tree’s feeder roots grow within several inches of the soil surface and go out beyond the drip line of most trees.
While I am not a fan of chemicals, you might be much better off in the long run to eliminate the wire grass with intensive roundup treatment before you introduce new trees. This might take a growing season to accomplish before you can plant trees in a space free of wire grass. I would clear a very large area so that you do not need to treat the grass near any new fruit trees you plan to grow.
After eliminating the wire grass sow the area with crimsom clover and plant your trees. Obtain a generous amount of hardwood chips to mulch immediately around each tree using only about 1” near each trunk and increasing to about 6” deep at the drip line.
Your clay soil is naturally a mineral rich benefit if prepared well. The main concern is if you reach a hardpan when digging. If so it will inhibit drainage of the planting hole. So first do a perk test of the hole to see if it drains overnight after filling with water. If not you need to either penetrate the hardpan of think about planting on a mound so your tree roots have ample free draining medium to get a good start.
In some clays, but not all, gypsum works so you can try mixing a few hands full into the soil from the hole. A better approach might be to incorporate about 30% organic materials such as spagnum peat moss and garden compost.
As the woodchips breakdown into soil keep adding each year and they will naturally feed your trees all the nutrients needed to do well. If you can locate a mature fruit tree in your area, you can dig around it to see if you can find some micorrhizae innoculant to jump start the wood chip breakdown.
This would be my approach and I wish you success. I have done a lot of research on clay soils and can PM you that if you wish, just let me know.
Dennis
Kent, Wa
I’m pretty dead set about not using chemical pesticides / herbicides. I have had some success removing wire grass manually though it usually takes a few rounds to get every runner and node. I hear what you are saying about the use of a physical root barrier and my I may alter my approach to use it for only the first 1-2 years as the roots are able to gain a good foothold. In the meantime, I can work on getting a good ground crop implemented within a large radius so that when I pull the root barrier out, there won’t be anything too invasive around to move in.
I have used an approach similar to the hugelkultur method in some of my raised beds. Old logs in the bottom with some soil, limbs, mulch, soil all layered in so that as the inner portions decompose, it simply add organic material to the mix. First year of that has gone well.
However, I like what a guy on the Permies site had to say about preparing the soil for fruit trees (I am looking at several resources), and he advises against mixing the compost and chips into the actual soil that is placed back into the hole.
I have a link to that thread but it appears I am not allowed to place links in my posts. I will send you a private message with that link and would be interested in what your thoughts are on his approach.
And yes, I would like to get anything you have on clay soils as I am building beds that are a combination of in-ground and above ground where I have to deal with the clay.
Thanks,
Doug (not Greg, not sure where you got that name).
So, to DennisD, I was going to pm the Permies link to you but I can’t find any way to send you a message. The message button doesn’t show up when I click on your icon.
I could try and reconstruct it in pieces in a reply but don’t want to break any forum rules. Perhaps you could send me a PM and then I should be able to reply.
Just so you know sweet cherries are exceptionally hard on the humid East Coast without using sythentic sprays, and even then you may get near entire crop failures due to poorly timed rains or late frosts
Yea, I have read a little about that. And if that doesn’t work out for me, there are plenty of other fruit trees to go for. I want to at least try and figure I can get a couple varieties for $100 - $150 to see how it goes. Appreciate the feedback though.
Welcome to Growing Fruit. There is a lot of great knowledge and first hand experience here.
There are many ways to plant trees to mitigate various soil issues and you’ll have to decide how to proceed as you weigh the options, including determining how much money and effort to put into the planting, etc. Planting a half dozen trees isn’t that big of a deal, but if you are putting in a hundred at once using your auger, etc. may be required which can limit exactly what you can do.
The lower phosphorus can be helped with compost (or composted manure) which is usually fairly rich in phosphorus but should be applied above the soil line instead of dug into the soil when you have possible drainage issues. As Dennis suggested, doing a quick perk test would tell you more about any drainage issues. My soil has a good bit of clay in it and the picture below is basically how I plant new trees.
I dig a fairly wide area to remove sod/weeds and broadly loosen the native soil (at least 4 feet wide, but usually closer to 6), then plant the tree in the loosened soil leaving it at least 3 inches above the soil to the top of the root flare. Then put down compost up to the top of the root flare, then I use wood chips on top of that, starting the wood chips a few inches away from the trunk and having a thicker layer further out. This creates a shallow mound for better drainage and worms and other activity will work some of the organic material down into the native soil over time. If I’m using composted manure, I mix that 50/50 with peat moss, which also helps lower pH a bit.
I also cut a sharp edge straight down at the turf line and leave it open to create a bit of an air gap to keep the grass from growing into the mulch. This sort of works like the ring you mention in your first post. I deal with a lot of wire grass and having the mulch and looser soil layer at the top makes it much easier to pull out any runners that get across and start into the mulch. You can also put down a layer of cardboard before the mulch to act as a weed block while your trees get established. Wire grass is a never ending journey, but by re-cutting the edge with a shovel every few months and pulling any runners trying to get in, it can be mostly kept away.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the pH right away, and urine won’t really make any appreciable difference. It is really hard to make a large permanent change in your soil’s pH. Scattering a few cups of elemental sulfur under a mulch layer will help lower it a bit over time, so is probably worth doing. Add more wood chip mulch each year for the first few years and as that continues to break down and your organic matter goes up the soil will generally improve.
Lots of good advice being given here. When it comes to keeping grasses away, cardboard and a layer of mulch are some of your best friends.
You didn’t ask for recommendations on what to plant, but I can’t help myself…
If ‘sweet’ cherries don’t work out well for you, try tart ones like Montmorency. And I suspect that blight-resistant pears like Ayers and Warren would work well in your conditions. So would American and hybrid persimmons.
Lots and Lots of good stuff here. I really appreciate all the input from everybody.
This gives me good idea on where I need to start for sure.
I am going to start laying out my plant positions within the next week for everything. A lot of this reinforces some stuff I have read in other places which I like it when different sources agree. At least on the basic principles if not every little detail.
Will be trying to start with Apples and Cherries. I actually have a couple persimmon sprouts that I got to germinate from seed last year from a neighbor’s tree but will up-pot them to let them get more established before putting them in the ground.
Pears are on the list as well and maybe even peaches. Being in NC, I probably need to consider Paw Paws as well as it is native to this area.
I’ve heard that Gypsum only helps with salty soils. Don’t worry about your soil texture just yet. I have what seems like compacted clay, but my trees and shrubs don’t seem to mind it.
I do grow cherries and their biggest problem is the humidity in my area (East TN) which leads to fungal problems. The other problem with cherries is insects. About 50% of my crop is usually wormy because I don’t spray my tree.
Before you plant apples, see if there are and Cedar trees in your area. If there are cedars within 500 feet of your apple trees, you should look for rust-resistant cultivars.
Your highish soil pH is well-suited for figs and goji. Door County in WI is famous for its sweet and sour cherry orchards and that region has alkaline soil, so attempting to change your soil pH might not be necessary anyway.
That shouldn’t be a problem. Just make sure your put all the soil and rocks you took out of the hole back into it with the tree. You’ll end up with a mound that will sit above grade for a year or two, but it will eventually settle back down to where it was before you added the tree.
Sorry in advance, but I can’t help myself either! If you really want to do peaches in the NC piedmont, look for the latest flowering ones. When I tried to grow peaches, the blossoms always got zapped by late frosts, so they never actually set fruit for me.
Yes, I actually has what I think was a volunteer peach tree at the bottom of my back property and unfortunately, it was an early blooming variety and I rarely got any peaches from it. It was also in a low spot and very shaded by some large oaks and this past summer, the trunk finally rotted out. Oddly, there is another volunteer about 20 ft further into the wooded area. It’s still growing but I don’t expect much from it. Appreciate the reminder though.
Yea, after considering and doing a little more research, I think I may wait on trying the cherry trees. I would hate to have half my initial planting to be a bust.
I actually have a couple older granny smith apple trees around so am unfortunately familiar with the apple cedar rust. I have culled as many cedars as I can and am going to actively take out some more in the vicinity. One of the granny smith trees is very old and the trunks are starting to rot out so it is going to come down to make room for something else.
I though goji was a tropical. Will certainly have to investigate that further.
Nope! It’s very hardy. Sadly, it’s not very tasty. I’m growing some for leaves as a vegetable. I have the yellow variety, and it’s way better than the red ones, but by that I mean it doesn’t make me gag.
I don’t have wire grass but have good luck putting cardboard down and wood chips on top. It only last a year or 2 though. As far as lowering pH it seem that elemental sulfur is the best and is cheap, but Miracid works an I use it yearly on my blueberries. My soil is already low pH and blueberries will grow ok without, but I’m not sure if wood chips or pine needles change the pH, or at least don’t think they do anything if you are already below 7. That being said 7.7 doesn’t seem too high.
