That mulch turns into the “O horizon”, i. e. the organic layer within a soil profile, which is typically where many feeder roots exist in a forest ecosystem. I’ve dug enough up with excavators to confirm what I learned about it in college.
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i have my compost piles near my big spruces. always find roots in them after a year.
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Because people have done these experiments for 100 years. And the biodynamic gardens turn out better. So some people refuse to observe that they are doing better and say it’s not possible because I don’t want to believe it. That’s not science.
Others have observed that they are doing better and try to figure out why. That’s where I’m at.
John S
PDX OR
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Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you.
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Sorry, I didn’t mean “let each person judge for themselves” as if to say “you are impeding others from judging for themselves”, but, “thus, I think everyone should read these various inputs, and make a decision based thereupon.” Sorry for any confusion.
I have Goumi between some relatively close spaced persimmon and a fig tree and now mostly regret it. They are super thorny and their relative vigor is much higher than I expected. The goumi are as tall as the fig and persimmon they are next too.
I’ll probably graft the goumi onto autumn olive elsewere and then either remove or transplant the goumi.
As far as the nitrogen fixing goes, is the notion that they fix nitrogen, and then the prunings and dropped leaves share that with adjacent trees? Or do they somehow share nitrogen in the root zone?
edit: maybe I should have read the thread before asking my question, I see that obvious question was discussed, probably at length, I still haven’t read most of it.
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the jury’s out on the subject . some claim the N fixer needs to die to share N , others say it happens when live roots intermingle. my goumi is planted 4ft from a black currant and its a little bigger than my same type black currants planted in the same row without a N fixer. i only plant fruiting N fixers so if they don’t really benefit the plants near them they still give a crop of something. still win/ win.
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The only nitrogen fixers I’ve spent much time researching are clover and alfalfa. Most university research I’ve found indicates the N is used by the plants producing the N, until the clover and alfalfa is terminated. Then some N is available for other crops/plants
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All across Northern California the vineyards plant fava beans during the grape’s dormant season. I’ve always assumed that’s for the nitrogen fixings qualities of the favas. I’ve also enjoyed the way they look in winter, so I plant them between my grape vines too. Plus I love fava humus.
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that’s annuals. perennials are a different animal though.
Clover and alfalfa are perennials in most of the midwest. Farmers will terminate alfalfa after 4-5 years or so. Some farmers around here do plant single cut red clover and terminate after a growing season to prepare for a corn planting the next year.
I’ve got clover/alfalfa food plots going on their 7th year. Most food plotters will terminate plots like that after 3-5 years and rotate a N loving crop for a year or two to use up accumulated N, then go back to clover/alfalfa for another few years.
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I’ll try to add more content later, but I have common & Greek Mullein, lots of True comfrey, Borage, several clovers, Rhubarb, Common Yucca, 6 varieties of perennial garlic everywhere…
All intermingling in my budding permaculture orchard. I’m adding extensive pollinator & herbal sections this year. I went LOCO this year @ Prairie Moon Nursery & Strictly Medicinals!
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Murky: Years ago, I ordered goumi and autumn olive from Burnt Ridge. I think it was 2 of each. I got 3 autumn olive and 1 goumi. I think autumn olive is easier to grow from cuttings. Do you think they might have been mixed up? My goumi is nowhere near as tall as my autumn olive.
John S
PDX OR
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I don’t know John, but you can graft guomi to autumn olive. My autumn olive doesn’t set fruit, so I grafted it to guomi last year. I have 3 varieties of guomi if you want scion wood. My crude attempt to root guomi didn’t work. I haven’t tried with autumn olive.
I’ve learned from some very knowledgeable gardeners that Ceanothus can fix nitrogen. Several species are native across much of N America, and is often cited as an important pollinator plant. Some species can go as low as zone 4.
We are growing C. Hearstiorum, which seems like an ideal orchard species for us, as it is a ground cover and can tolerate some shade and damp. (Many species are more shrub-like, and/or need full sun, and/or perish with persistent summer watering.) Only suitable down to zone 8 tho.
PS: here’s a citation: Symbiotic Nitrogen Fixation in Ceanothus Roots on JSTOR
PPS: I’ll soon be experimenting with propagation, and can share/trade if I am successful (for simple scions for those who want to try it, happy to share/trade sooner)
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After several deep dives into this, as well as personal experiments, I’m convinced at least some of the nitrogen-sharing can happen from live plants. I don’t bother with the mowing/turning into the soil. I can see the benefits to my plants, and there’s more and more research to suggest this. I do believe tho that the benefits may be lower (tho the labor savings more than make up for it for me personally).
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I have grown autumn olive from cuttings many times. I tried with goumi, but I couldn’t get it to work. My goumis generally make little babies next to them after awhile, so that’s how I often propagate them.
John S
PDX OR
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And some of the purple ones are really, really beautiful, too. I have seen native ones on the CA/OR border, but they had white flowers and I found them less beautiful.
JohN S
PDX OR
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i have 2 sweet fern and a black cohosh growing in the flower bed in front of my deck with a small red leafed jap. maple and purple rhodendron. going to plant a dwarf mulberry right in the middle of the N fixers. its a s facing spot protected from prevailing winds by the trailer so should do very well there.
There’s a relatively long list of N fixing plants outside of the legumes. Here’s a good overview: Nitrogen fixation - Wikipedia
Also worth noting, from the same wiki article
Nitrogen fixation is carried out naturally in soil by microorganisms termed diazotrophs that include bacteria, such as Azotobacter and Rhizobia, and archaea. Some nitrogen-fixing bacteria have symbiotic relationships with plant groups, especially legumes. Looser non-symbiotic relationships between diazotrophs and plants are often referred to as associative, as seen in nitrogen fixation on rice roots.
I remember as a kid wondering how places with few to no native legumes, such as where I grew up, still had any nitrogen left in the soil at all. I had read in some gardening book that lightning can fix N, but that didn’t seem like a sufficient source. Later on I learned that the wax myrtles and alders, both of which were common there, fix N. That helped, but then I wondered why they weren’t more dominant, since they only grew in some sites. If they were the only things fixing N, and they only grew on some places, then other sites, like the old grown forest behind my parents house, ought to be completely starved of N, but clearly were not. Only when I was much older did I learn that N fixation can happen directly in the soil.
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