Pakistan Mulberry in Zone 7 possible? (+ trying & growing PawPaws, Persimmons etc.)


#121

Most of my whip trees, I headed them off at knee high to let them branched out to kept them short. I used the cut off portion as scions to bark graft as a back up just in case that tree did not make it through the first season.

Tony


#122

this international exchange/correspondence is getting more diverse, which to me is priceless :slight_smile:[quote=“nicollas, post:119, topic:7714”]
it is wise to plant pakistan in place that takes time to warm in spring to avoid fast awakening.
[/quote]

that is worthy of consideration for areas with late frosts. Paks seem to be the outlier among mulberries and more like other deciduous fruit trees-- leafing out when the air temperature gets warm enough.
Other mulbs seem to leaf out only when the ground temp has warmed up.

i agree with @tonyOmahaz5 . Those droopy stems seem to indicate having been grown in light-starved, crowded conditions(which is of course an unavoidable thing with mass-propagation). And if i remember it right you mentioned having gusty conditions where you’re at
as with cuttings, the higher root-to-bud ratios, the more likely the specimens will survive. An extreme way of explaining this i guess, is to say that it is more difficult to kill a tree by removing 99% of its buds and leaving just a few nodes while leaving the roots 100% unharmed, compared to destroying 99% of its roots and leaving 100% of the tree’s buds :grin: Of course it is important to verify if the nodes you’d be leaving appear viable/undamaged.

The extra scions also add to the likelihood of success, should the bare-root specimen fail.


#123

P.S. here is my Pakistan Mulberry in Zone 7a.
You can see the multiple diebacks i mentioned (each of those branches are 10-12footers at some point):

and

I found some old pics of my plant:
large leaves!


’bush form’ mulberry (multiple low grafts):

a few fruit I got:


#124

Thats sad.

But i still want to try it and see how the Bud Mutation handles our climate!

Maybe ill have a chance to taste the fruit.

I also have the Illinois Everbearing and the Lavender Mulberry waiting to be planted.

Iam excited to get some Mulberries from these two, but that will take awhile i guess!


#125

Hi Nicollas and welcome at this forum !

how old is your Pakistan mulberry and is this tree first winter in ground? Well, we had 0 F temperatures last week and probably will give up to grow this Pakistan mulberry in ground, it seems to be not enough hardy for my climate. Maybe Marvin will be more succesfull in Austria, he is southern from my area, and hope he will supply us with beautiful pictures of Pakistan mb with fruits in some years :slight_smile:

for me there will be the best choice wild seedlings growing in my area for tens of years. those trees have not so big fruits, but are reliable producers and hardy to my 6b zone. new varieties also come from seedlings selection.


#126

Its the third winter of my pakistan in the ground, but the last two were unusually warm. In 2012 we got -15°C several weeks but hopefully i hadnt my pakistan yet. The pakistan look sad for two years cause of damage by deer on trunk and slugs on leaves. Last winter i transplanted it north to a building (ensuring it will not take any winter sun to delay leafing) and parked my four chicken in a 4m² zone around the trunk of the mulberry. It got very vigorous, and seemed to harden well (i was a bit worried about an excess of nitrogen that could have render the bark tender).

I’ll give a try to hybridize pakistan with more cold hardy cultivars to see whats happen

Mulberries fruit on current season wood so i think it is worth a try a pakistan on its own roots or grafted very low, and then train them like an espalier tree but cutting branches each fall to the main limb, and cover it

None of my mulberries fruited yet, wainting to taste pakistan, oscar, wellington and gerardi dwarf


#127

I got a reply from Dithmar:

These young trees do not really need pruning yet.
If you let them grow as they are they will form a feather shaped bush
with a central leader.
If you want them as a stem then you should just remove any side shoots
as they appear and let the apex grow as tall as possible until you
decide that the height is sufficient, then cut the apex and let the
crown form.
If you cut the little trees back now you will form a low multi stemmed
branching bush.
So, whichever you prefer…
rgds,
Dithmar

Regarding this reply i wont prune them.


#128

the stems are somewhat flimsy to me, which is why was a little doubtful about them holding their central leaders if the leaders grow from higher up. But i also understand what the nursery was saying, as it is obvious that the trees came to you braced/propped with sticks, and by keeping your trees braced for a longer time , it will surely catch up in strength when exposed to full sun. Mulbs and most other trees tend to get leggy with flimsy branching when not getting enough sun, which is often the case in nurseries, but will get muscular and thick after a few years of full-sun.


#129

Just would like to ask about the Hyakume Persimmon!

I see that there are many varieties and Hyakume is just the group name.

Though, some nurseries offer theirs just as “Hyakume”, while others have them as “Yamato Hyakume”, “Koshu Hyakume” etc…

Does anyone know which one has a yellow to orange skin and a dark flesh when pollinated?

I am looking for one like that:

This is the only one where iam not sure… any ideas?


#130

We’ve got -12.5°C this night, no sign of damages on branches or buds this morning


#131

I will probably drive this or next year to Bulgaria to get the Tsuru Noko (Chocolate) and the Nishimura Wase (Coffeecake) Persimmons.

Pepiniere Du Bosc doesnt have them in stock … ExoticPlant Bulgaria has them but they dont deliver to Austria!

Its a 15 hour trip to Bulgaria.


#132

Marvin, I have got some Hyakume variety but it does not produce such fruits on that picture with cinnamon brown flesh inside. my hyakume is good producer with good fruit quality. I dont think that Tsurunoko persimmon will taste like chocolate but maybe I am wrong :slight_smile:


#133

Chocolate is a marketing name used by dave wilson for this variety.

I dont grow it but as far as I understand it needs to be cross pollinated to lose its astringency and get that cinammon color. Otherwise it will be astringent and needs a longer hangtime (frost?) to be palatable.


#134

Okay!

Seems like i have to search a bit more to find the described variety.

I would also like to have Zenji Maru, Nishimura Wase, Tsuru Noko. (All of them should have dark flesh when pollinated)

Yep … no taste of chocolate, its just the color.

This video shows one … looks awesome!

I just would like to know why the french nursery lists them as PCA.

It should be a PVNA type.

http://www.pepinieredubosc.fr/kaki/#chocolate

I also tried to alcohol treat some persimmons this week.

I bought a few Sharon Persimmons that were still astringent.

Then i dipped them in Vodka and put them in a zip bag for 2 days.

The taste was good and the astringency has disappeared.


#135

Do you already know this german nursery/seller?

They are quite pricey but do sell some rare fruittrees, at least rare in europe. Some years ago I bought their pawpaws. They dont grow the plants themselves. The pawpaws came from italy. The size was ok, the quality lala. Some came in with damages from waterstress. But at that time you couldnt get those varieties from other sources. I was quite happy to get my hands on them and I still am.

They sell a kaki called Cioccolatino. Maybe its the same as chocolate? Im not into kakis very much.


#136

I think french public is not educated enough to cope with PVNA, we are still trying to grasp this whole PCA/PCNA thing :wink:


#137

Hey

Yes i know that nursery.

But i heard, like you said that the quality is medicore.

Seems like Cioccolatino is a different variety, they have a different shape.

Cioccolatino

Chocolate:

My all time favourite nursery in Austria is Praskac.

They have many rare and interesting plants compared to all the others here.

And its also only 1 hour away from me :smiley:

The best collection of PawPaws in Austria!

https://www.praskac.at/obst/indianerbanane

Its just a major advantage to see the plants before you buy them.

Very good quality trees and friendly staff!

Haha maybe ^^

Sadly they have nothing available for this year, but thats not a problem.


#138

I have to ask Dithmar (demoerbeiboom) if this one gets dark flesh when pollianted.

Cant find that variety elswhere.

Maybe thats the one!


#139

Please explain the whole PCNA and PVNA thing, please.


#140

https://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/persimmon.html:

Persimmons can be classified into two general categories: those that bear astringent fruit until they are soft ripe and those that bear nonastringent fruits. Within each of these categories, there are cultivars whose fruits are influenced by pollination (pollination variant) and cultivars whose fruits are unaffected by pollination (pollination constant). Actually, it is the seeds, not pollination per se, that influences the fruit. An astringent cultivar must be jelly soft before it is fit to eat, and such cultivars are best adapted to cooler regions where persimmons can be grown. The flesh color of pollination-constant astringent cultivars is not influenced by pollination. Pollination-variant astringent cultivars have dark flesh around the seeds when pollinated. A nonastringent persimmon can be eaten when it is crisp as an apple. These cultivars need hot summers, and the fruit might retain some astringency when grown in cooler regions. Pollination-constant nonastringent (PCNA) persimmons are always edible when still firm; pollination-variant nonastringent (PVNA) fruit are edible when firm only if they have been pollinated.