I was unaware of that distinction, so thank-you for pointing out that Imidan may indeed have more health concerns that others mentioned in this thread. Few on this site are in a better position to offer advice about these things than you are, Rick, and I must confess that I probably don’t give Imidan the level of attention and concern it may warrant. I sort of fell in love with it because it works so much better than other things I had used, and forget that it may be so much better because it is so much stronger- good for bugs but quite possibly bad for people! Thanks!
I’m no expert on ag chemicals! I struggle each year with choosing the best/lowest cost product and getting it applied at the right time.
I noticed the the 14 day re-entry on Imidan to the public because that requirement directly applies to my situation where I sell some fruit PYO to the public.
I may be wrong but I understand that Imidan is less harmful to bees and benifical insects than Actara, but potentially more harmful to mammals than Actara.
So I ordered Martins Vegetable Plus which is Permethrin. For this year I will stick to Martins and Carbaryl. Again thanks for all the advice/help.
That’s right. Actara is much more toxic to honeybees by many factors of 10. It can be used safely. You just want to make sure you don’t spray foraging plants.
I took this short vid last year of a friend who put a bee swarm box near the orchard. I see bees continually when there are things for them to forage. My beekeeper friend said this was a nice strong swarm. I’d already sprayed Actara once or twice when this video was recorded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d24-YFRI2o
Most organophosphates are generally considered less safe to mammals by the EPA. Phosmet is not alone in this. It wasn’t but just a few years ago Azinphos Methyl was phased out. Phosmet is only available in water soluble packets (to prevent the mixer from coming into contact with the chemical). Lorsban (chlorpyrifos) is only available in liquid form under restricted use, otherwise it comes in water soluble packets. The EPA clearly is trying to minimize exposure to applicators. Malathion is evidently an exception. It’s still widely available in liquid.
All that said, it’s hard for me to get excited about the dangers of phosmet. Before 2000, anyone could buy phosmet as a dust (like Sevin) to dust anything. The studies Alan mentions about pesticide applicators living longer were compiled from data in the time period when organophosphates were in their heyday.
Olpea
Nice to see the bees doing so well! I’m not too excited about the dangers of Phosmet, but the label restrictions are getting tighter and may become so restrictive that I can no longer use the product. I used less Imidan this year than last. Actara works great but at the max rate I only get 2 applications.
That’s true. But its strengths are mainly against PC and stinkbug. Even in your area, where you probably get two generations of PC, I’d guess if you hit the first one hard, mild materials would suffice for the second one.
If you want to extend your early PC sprays, you can use Belay. Belay and Actara are both bee killers if bees are exposed, but they are also both very lethal PC killers (and very hard on stink bug). I use both sometimes in the same season (yesterday did a Belay spray.) The Belay label recommends avoiding consecutive use of 4a (neonic) or tank mixing for resistance management, so you might want to consider using a tank mix (of a different class) if you decided to use 2+2 sprays of Actara and Belay.
Regarding tank mix, on a lighter note, I have to share what I thought funny a comment from an Apple Crop contributor today.
“This reminds me of a farmers definition of a satisfactory tank mix: ‘if you put it all in the tank and it doesn’t explode, then it’s a tank mix.’”
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I switched to HI YIELD permethrin this year and have been very pleased with it.
It has good kick back and is relatively inexpensive, about $30/Qt.
You doing the 10% Hi Yield permethrin or the 38% Hi Yield?
I too have been using a permethrin, It would be nice if I feel I need to up my game if someone would add Actara to spray amounts guide. I suck at math, makes me sleepy!
I called the manufacturer and they recommended the 10%, so that’s
what I got. The 38% would have been too extreme for my use, but the
10% is very strong stuff. You should definitely wear a respirator. As soon
as you open the bottle, you can smell it.
Aha, now I’ve caught you. You used to brag about how you got all that perfect fruit without spray because you planted the right varieties:wink:. That happens in surburbia- you get fruit without spray for a while but then you get found out by the insects and then me.
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I’ve ALWAYS stated that I spray stone fruit for PC, but I don’t spray
any trees in my orchard for disease nor other insects. So put that in your
pipe and smoke it.
Guess I misremembered. Am surprised brown rot hasn’t found your peaches yet.
If I won the lottery I always figured I’d buy a hill out in the middle of corn/soy land and plant my trees there. I guess it sounds like this might not work?
But you have all of the farmsteads with apples and pears and plums and tart cherries and then the tree lines with plums and wild apples, etc. So maybe that is part of it?
I picked a plum curculio into my bag last summer with my Redhaven peaches. First one I’ve seen. But they didn’t figure out last year that they could lay eggs in my fruit yet. Well that and I really try to keep my trees white with Surround.
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Hi Levers101 - Do you put surround on before bloom? Does it affect bees or pollination? How often do you spray? I am brand new to spraying for insects. First year I had a problem. Thanks - Spud
This is my second year, so probably too soon to say if organic will work for me in the long-term. The fungi are the deal breaker for Scott.
Surround probably wouldn’t kill the bees, but it can’t be great for them either, as it supposedly works by being an irritant to insects. I have been doing targeted sprays on the clusters that have dropped petals but are on trees that still have blooms, and completely avoid open or to-open clusters of flowers. Our week of cold, rainy weather has made for a drawn-out bloom. Plus my apple trees are still young and are mostly blooming on tips rather than spurs, with the spurs seeming to bloom first and the tips later.
I spray Sulfur for apple scab, with NuFilm 17 when I’m not using Surround. I try to watch the weather and put it down before a rain. I use http://newa.cornell.edu to monitor scab maturity and really want to hit trees when that model predicts a major spore release.
When I spray Surround I usually include some sulfur. That is mostly because I find the mix to be decent at deterring deer from eating my trees.
I ended up bagging all my apples last year by mid-June. Probably about 75 fruit. I did keep spraying Surround on plums and peaches after that, but late sprays of Surround on peaches are a pain. It is hard to wash Surround off of peaches. I did not bag my stone fruit because I kept pulling them off trying to put bags on.
This year will be different. I will probably bag the same number of fruit, but will at least have as many that I won’t bag.
It may be coincidental, but I used to have a nursery with commercial apple orchards nearby, and pest pressure was much higher there than any other location I’ve used- even the deer ignored repellents that work elsewhere. I think it is a matter of lots of pests being drawn to the area just by the compounds the trees exude, but it may also be about the abandoned orchards that usually exist in apple growing country around here.
Brown Rot is not a disease that peaches get in the South. At least
I’ve never seen it.
I did not know that and it surprises the hell out of me. I believe other southern growers on the forum have discussed BR problems, so maybe you are blessed, or maybe I misremembered that as well.
After writing that sentence I did a quick search and it looks like you have extremely good fruit growing Karma- or maybe it’s the music you play your trees.
This is my first year to use surround. I only have one young peach tree and this is how I proceeded to keep my fruit insect free.
-Sprayed surround toward the end of bloom
-Sprayed two days later
-Sprayed as needed until now (these sprays are not time scheduled, they are mostly done immedialy after a rain).
-The peaches are about 3/4" and I thinned to ten and bagged with super vented sandwich bags.
I only detected one peach with insect damage which was discarded. This is a small sample and I will find out how it works in a few months.