In aggregate it can have a huge impact – esp. when the growers are concentrated in a municipality.
Permethrin is an issue in every state.
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Richard, pyrethroid pollution in sediments is concentrated in certain areas, even in CA, and is not at all evenly dispersed. If a grower chooses they can investigate the level of contamination in their area. The issue is being studied and it is up to scientists to determine the relative safety of these products- the science is evolving and neither of us is actually qualified to render verdicts. Like everything else, potential side affects vary, and you must make a choice based on alternatives and the relative impact where you are growing. When a product is proven to be a hazard it is up to the EPA to take it off market.
Your sweeping statement, “in aggregate it can have a huge impact” is very vague. Please, let’s just stick with known facts. Where exactly are home fruit growers concentrated in a municipality in the first place? Is it an area where pyrethroids are a “problem” and are they known to be less safe for the environment than alternatives?
You suggested that the pyrethroid in one product was less dangerous to the environment than another. That would be useful information if you could verify it.
As for myself, I produce fruit with far less pesticide input than what conventional commercial growers in my region use. I’m using chemicals to produce food and not a pretty lawn or flowers. If it is a goal, home growers are capable of producing food with less input than what is used in commercial agriculture and the risks of pollution ARE less because home growers are widely scattered and not growing “in aggregate” anywhere I’ve ever been. This reduces the concentration of pests and the concentration of poisons.
The only literature I’ve seen supporting your theory of home owner contribution to this type of pollution is via lawn-products- probably much applied by commercial applicators. The insecticides we are discussing are such a limited market with homeowners that I have never even see them advertised, although I’ve no idea how many cases the average HD moves of, say, Triazicide, and of that, how much is used for fruit trees, but I’d venture to guess it is a minuscule percentage of the overall minuscule use compared to what is used in commercial agriculture. Here in the northeast, only 2 apps are usually required a season for fruit pests, while cabbage might need to be sprayed every 2 weeks into fall (in a commercial farm).
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Alan, the facts are that not all pyrethroids have the same chemical and environmental characteristics. In my view, IF a consumer wanted to choose a pyrethroid I’d recommend consumer-grade Cyfluthrin. On the other hand, IF they were more open to different choices I’d make a recommendation more specific to their crops, ecology, and pests.
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I re-opened this thread because it’s about Permethrin. I have some fruit that I want to protect from plum curculio, and the spinosad I have isn’t effective with PC. I found Permethrin in Bonide’s Eight Insect Control formulation, which says it works against PC. But the label says with regarding apples and pears, “use only three times a season”, but, regarding apples, “not after petal fall”. So, does this mean it cannot be used at all on apples for the entire period between petal fall and harvest? If so, why bother to mention the insects it works on? If you spray before bloom, you risk killing all the pollinators, and since PC hits after petal fall and fruit set, when then can it be used?
What am I not getting? It doesn’t say that for stone fruit, it even allows for more sprays in a season, so what’s the deal with apples? Could someone who uses pesticides on trees on a large scale like @alan or @olpea (or anyone else) explain this? Thanks.
Here’s the label:
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The label is the law and sometimes the law doesn’t make much sense. For some reason Permethrin is more restricted than some other pyrethroids. Sometimes it is just because the company doesn’t want to go through the very expensive process of getting approval for residential use. Olpea often has the inside scoop on this type of issue.
Triazicide is often effective and is a similar pyrethroid.
I never use any insecticides before petal fall except in very special cases, and then it would be in the delayed dormant. Most fruit pests attack the fruit and even ones that attack foliage can often be controlled on the same schedule as what’s used for fruit.
In the NE we often can get by with just two insecticide sprays.
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Thanks. I guess then I’ll use it on my plums then, and the Surround that’s coming in this week will have to be used on the apples. After PC season ends, in late spring, I’ll mix the Surround with spinosad for CM. And I’ll look into Triacizide.
I just find it very odd that of all fruits, the only mention of not using after petal fall is apples. Like I said before, why list the apple insects it controls, but then not be able to use it, and why even mention max use of it 3 times? That’s cray-cray…
Perhaps they are hoping the customer uses it against the regulations.
I just now saw this thread two years old and liked an old post on this thread.
The permethrin dilemma has been discussed before. Honestly, I can’t remember if anyone offered a reason why permethrin was so restrictive on apples. It’s totally useless for apples as the label stands.
I use it some on stone fruits. It’s not as cheap as some other pyrethroids , which work as well. Baythroid, Mustang, Warrior II work just as well, have better labels and are cheaper per acre.
That said, I’ve used some permethrin this season. It provides a decent broad spectrum kill at a decent price.
Of course all these commercially packaged pyrethroids require an applicator license. Alan has a commercial license which is more intensive than a private license than any of the rest of us on the forum have. Like others, I just have a private license for my own crop.
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My understanding is that Permethrin kills beneficial insects on Apple trees. I used left over Permethrin (from spraying my peach trees) to spray my Apple trees during PC season one year. It was a huge mistake - I had a horrible aphid infestation later in the season. I cannot say that the Pemethrin killed the beneficial insects that allowed the Aphid infestation to occur/last but it is the only time I have had a serious problem with aphids on my apple trees. My personal lesson learned - read the label closer and follow the label.
Most people who pick up pesticides don’t think about total cost of ownership, and by that I mean cascade and systemic effects.
You have to pick your poison. Part of it is understanding the half life of the chemicals you’re choosing. Pyrethroids and its synthetic counterparts break down fairly fast in sunlight. Toxicity isn’t going to be persist beyond a few days, but despite it’s high toxicity to aquatic life (hopefully no one using it is doing so near ponds, lakes etc…), one of it’s benefits is that it’s fairly easy on earthworms. It’s not particularly water soluble so there’s that.
Now take spinosad as an alternative option. It’s less toxic to aquatic life relative to pyrethroids. It’s generally supplied in formulations far more water soluable, and is highly toxic to earthworms. Much longer half life once in the soil, but it also breaks down much faster in sunlight than pyrethroids.
In any case, neither is a systemic insecticide. You’re killing for that day or the next 48 hours once sprayed (assuming you’re not relying on some other regiment).
As do all pyrethroids used on apples, which is why they are not recommended by Cornell except in emergencies. I bet I’m seeing peach aphids and even whitefly as a fruit pest for the first time in the last few years because we’ve started using pyretrhoids.
Avaunt is very good for plum curc. but in NYS you aren’t supposed to use it unless you plan to sell some apples.
Triazicide is often effective and is a similar pyrethroid.
Alternately you can search here by Crop and Pest for pesticide products:
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Brown marmerated stinkbugs, for one thing.
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What would the timings be for those two sprays?
If you go to guides you can find my complete article on the subject.
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Hate those things… They infuriate me to no end, worse now that they seem to find ways to squeeze into the house to overwinter the past few years.
Yes, but I’d much rather have them in my house than in my fruit trees. They are a strange pest that created a panic with all the damage they did to peaches in some regions when they first arrived and exploded in numbers. However, they don’t consistently attack fruit. So far they’ve only been a huge problem for me one season and in a limited area.
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What do they do to fruit?
I have some sort of stink bug in my foliage (I try to just spray the fruit lightly, with a systemic neonic, but still) and they seem to die less often than the PC and their eggs. Tough little buggers.
Something’s eating the fuzz off a few of my peaches. Is that them?
They do damage that I call catfacing. Damage to fruit surfaces, usually not deep holes like boring insects.
Fruit are unsightly. this type of damage is costly to people who plan to sell their fruit or give them as gifts.
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