Yup! Lots of wood chips!
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Question: how can you tell the difference between Southern 60 chromosome American Persimmon and the Northern 90 chromosome American Persimmon. Iām curious for where the ranges overlap (like maybe Virginia or Maryland).
I got some rootstock from up north (Cold Stream Farms) and it looks slightly different than what i got from Maryland State Nursery. but maybe its just the way they grow them (Cold Stream a bit more spindly, Maryland a bit more straight whipsā¦ although Maryland has a maybe slightly more green color bark close the ground-level, Cold Stream more dark purple color bark).
Question#2: would the Southern one be bad to graft onto in a 7a/7b area (Philadephia) its pretty humid here like the South (well prob not as much as the deep south :), but i guess winters here are colder). Wondering how far zone-wise that rootstock can push in case I got some Southern ones.
EDIT: found this to maybe answer 1st question. 2nd questionā¦ not sure how far north be4 the cold-hardiness of the 90chromosome is definitely needed. Maybe Iāll ask Cliff one of these days.
There exist two races of American persimmon, a ninety-chromosome, ānorthernā race and a sixty-chromosome, āsouthernā race. The ānorthernā race is native to the upper Midwest of the U.S. and is the earlier ripening and more cold-hardy of the two races. Also, the pubescent leaves and larger fruit (which occasionally are bluish) of the ānorthernā race contrast with the smooth leaves and smaller fruit of the āsouthernā race.
Jerry Lehman is one of the national authorities on persimmons. He was asked if there is an easy way to tell the difference between 60 and 90 chromosome persimmons and this was his response:
Outside of planting seeds and doing a count of the newely emerged root tip with a microscope there may not be a sure way. However, Iāve looked at many persimmon trees in may parts of the US. Iām not sure there is a dividing line. I believe they are very mixed in the south midwest. My observation is there are two general types and I assume the chromosome numbers is the difference. The type which I believe is the 60 has smaller generally more glossy leaves, smaller fruit, twigs smaller diamater and the smaller fruits that require a considerable longer period before ripening. If Iām correct on the longer ripening period that is why they donāt range naturally in the northern areas, the seeds donāt mature before the growing season ends.
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P.S. Pikes Peak Nursery in PA has 50 seedlings for $1.60 each (plus $30 shipping) if anyone wants to graft next year (assume they are too small this year). Cold Stream is at $3.32 each at that quantity.
Just ordered some myself.
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All listed as out of stock at Pikes Peak Nursery
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@ansayre,
They have different webpages for different stock options which confused me tooā¦ i ordered via phone hour ago.
But here is the 50 bundle page:
I ordered 50, not sure if you can lower. Call and ask if you need less
Anyone have any American persimmon variety recommendations which donāt make very big fruit, but still very flavorful?
So many of the varieties on Cliffās site mention how large the fruit is. One of my friends is more interested in smaller fruit, that has less of a chance to go splat when it falls from the tree onto the ground/grass (so hoping smaller size helps with that), and heād like it to taste good for the wildlife and for humans too :).
The only one he says is medium sized there is Mohler. Anything else on the smaller side (but not too small)?
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What does he already have? Morris Burton is a possibility if he does not have it.
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He doesnāt have anything yet. Iām going to graft 40-50 soon so wanted to set aside 1 or 2 for him (and the rest are for other friends that are more interested in persimmon that can take on 20+ plants each).
Donāt have Morris Burton scionwood, but I can add next year (EDIT: found some still in stock at FruitWood Nursery so just bought a couple)ā¦ Here is scionwood I have for Americanās if any of these are on smaller-medium side:
H118 Early Jewel
Journey
Yates / Juhl
Celebrity U20A
Dollywood
Barbaraās Blush
Geneva Long
H63A
DEC DoubleZipTie
DEC King Crimson
DEC Goliath
DEC Wannabee
DEC Downington Middle
Mohler
Elmo A-118
J-59
DEC VALEENE QUEEN
DEC VALEENE BEAUTY
KNIGHTSVILLE
Morris Burton, Lena, H63A
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I also ordered one of these 2 weeks ago. Do you remember how long it takes for them to start shipping?
H63 was the smaller sized one that caught my eye. Very colorful fruit and supposed to be tasty.
H63A.
Iāve fruited H63A, Barbraās Blush, and Dollywood ā each only once on young grafts, but 15-20 fruits each at least. Based on my experience, if you want a great tasting American persimmon that doesnāt go splat, get H63A. Unlike many other Americans, it does not go soft and detach at the calyx, at least not as readily. So it hangs on the tree until fully ripe and can be picked off the tree like an Asian or hybrid.
H63A also gets great reviews for flavor, usually ending up in the top 1-5 on taste tests.
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@armyofda12mnkeys ā¦ MB ā¦ i have seen pics of posted hereā¦ and it was a smaller persimmon.
The thing about MB that seemes to be special is that the persimmon pulp retains its nice flavor thru freezing for extended time.
Many American varieties do not.
TNHunter
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I ordered 50 seedlings from pikes peak along with 10 paw paws, they drop shipped from a nursery in Michigan. I canāt think of that Michigan nursery right now, which is no help sorry .
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I find it telling that you mention this characteristic. Some persimmons ripen early enough that performance in a freeze is a moot point. H63A seems fairly early. I think I was done harvesting mine by mid/late October.
Iām not trying to make this a competition; Iām growing MB and hoping it proves terrific. But in full disclosure, isnāt MB a late ripener? So it may not ripen before the freeze, which is why performance in a freeze is relevant?
And yes, MB is small ā but does it go splat?
@jrd51 ā¦ i tried making some persimmon (low sugar chia jam)ā¦ a year or two agoā¦ with some of my local wild dv fruit.
They tasted great ā¦ classic wild american flavor quite intense.
But after heating (simmer 8 min) then freezing for storage ā¦ when I thawed some out later and tasted itā¦ that wonderful wild american flavor was gone. The jam was quite blaughā¦ i did not finish the pint.
I think MB is know to retain its flavor thru processing much better than most americans.
If that is trueā¦ I might add one some day just for making jam.
Let us know if you find that to be true.
I know I have read that in a few post here in the past.
TNHunter
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Below is one of the post that i remember reading on MB being able to retain flavor thru processing better than most.
Provided by snowflakeā¦
ā¦
According to claypool:
- early golden, garretson, killen pulp loses flavor over a year (good if used/baked within a month or two, 6 months is as long as you want to go)
- john rick (pulp keeps for a year)
- john rick and morris burton pulp keeps for a year (MB maybe maintains flavor for cooking for 2 years)
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Sorry for the newb question, but what about drying? Do American persimmons cultivars hold their flavors better or worse as a fruit leather rather than freezing?
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Got it. I thought you meant just freezing outdoors. Holding flavor through freezing / processing indoors would be an important quality.
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@Thazo1979 ā¦ on persimmon fruit leather.
I made some last year from very good tasting wild americansā¦
It is prettyā¦ nice colorā¦ plenty sweetā¦ but did not retain that nice wild american persimmon flavor.
I tried dehydrating a store bought jiro persimmon in slicesā¦ and it was not near as flavorful dehydrated as it was fresh.
I wonder if some varieries would workā¦ like MBā¦
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