Question; What about the Korean persimmons?
Are they from a native species or from Japanese stock? Are they more cool weather (cool growing season, not Winter cold) adaptable? I’ve heard that Inchon may be a choice for a cool maritime climate. Anyone know?
Interesting, I’m curious to find out more about Soshu. One Green World says that Cardinal is Korean. Soshu is apparently Japanese (actually from Japan, not just kaki).
My post about trademarks was in response to WhiteFirFarm’s post. I thought it was as a direct response, but see apparently it wasn’t.
@WhiteFirFarm – Korean varieties all came originally from China or Japan. Note especially that all Korean non-astringent varieties came from Japan, except for those bred post-WWII – and we know the names of those. It’s not impossible that a new seedling astringent (PCA, PVA, or PVNA) arose in Korea from Chinese/Japanee parents. But it is impossible that there are any novel seedling non-astringents (PCNAs) in Korea.
None of that says not to look at Korean names. Just don’t get sucked in by any hype about special traits, such as cold hardiness. Any Korean PCNA (not one of the 6 recent releases noted below) is undoubtedly a synonym for some Japanese PCNA. I’m thinking, for example, Tam Kam and Gwang Yang. And any Korean PCA is almost certainly a synonym for some Chinese or Japanese PCA.
There is an active breeding program in Korea, focused on PCNAs. To my knowledge, they released 6 PCNA and 2 PVNA names in 2007-2020. All of the PCNAs have J-PCNA parentage, so they should be as cold hardy as the typical Fuyu, Jiro, Gosho.
FWIW, I think the same must be true of PCNAs outside Korea, such as Chinebuli, which comes to us from Japan by way of Romania. I don’t know what happened in England’s Nursery but most likely Chinebuli is Jiro.
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No prob. Soshu is definitely Japanese. It was released by their breeding program in 2000. It’s a cross of Izu and some -goshos – so it’s mostly Fuyu, then Okugosho, then some Fukurogosho. The Koreans use modern Japanese hybrids in their own breeding, so Soshu definitely got to Korea.
“Cardinal” must be a synonym for some J-PCNA, maybe one bred recently either in Japan or in Korea. It may or may not be Soshu but I don’t have a better guess.
Thank you jrd51 for the obviously knowledgeable and useful information. I originally thought that persimmons from Korea, if native, might be more cool tolerant than others, but it appears that persuing these varieties would likely be unrewarding. I really don’t need cold tolerant, but really need cool growing and cool ripening season tolerant.
@WhiteFirFarm – Honestly, it’s part knowledge and part logic. It’s hard to produce a new PCNA. Most varieties only rarely produce male flowers. And the PCNA trait is recessive, so a PCA x PCNA cross would not be PCNA. So I can’t figure out where a new PCNA seedling could come from. I’d be happy for someone to show me that I’m missing something . . . .
I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that there is a more-then-average cold hardy Korean PCA (e.g., Miss Kim?). That’s assuming that some relatively cold hardy varieties may have developed in China and then were exported either directly or indirectly (via Japan) to Korea.
I appreciate all of the information in your posts, but also am wondering if I’m getting hung up by semantics.
When One Green World says that Cardinal is a “Korean” variety, I took that to mean bred and/or discovered in Korea. If both of its parents were Japanese PCNA, but they were physically bred to produce Cardinal as their offspring in Korea, I’d consider that as “Korean” variety in the context of how One Green World described it.
Sure, me too. If so, I’d just like to know which one. The six PCNA names released by the Korean breeding program (that I’m aware of) are Romang (2008), Jowan (2018), Gampung (2020), Wonmi (2020), Wonchu (2020), Fantasy (2020). Is one of these “jo choo”? Or is it the Japanese release Soshu (2000).
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Without doing the library research myself, I’ll ask some about persimmon genetics because these designations are not familiar to me:
Since it appears that PC and PV go together, and that A and NA go together: Are PC and PV two alleles for pollen characteristics, and are A and NA two alleles for taste characteristics (astringency). Are these two features located on separate gene loci? Are they linked or epistatic or what? How do they work together? I’m sure this is covered in an earlier post so, please, point me that way or to a fairly basic source if easily done. Please don’t go far out of your way spending time as I can do the work and research it on the internet. A few hints would be helpful. Thanks in advance. It seems that the PC, PV, AND A, NA genes may all work in tandem and lead to all sorts of ramifications.
Briefly, A is astringent and NA is non-astringent. PC (pollination constant) is an unchanged color after pollination, PV (pollination variable) is a variable color – darkening of flesh around seeds. There are two mutations (i.e., two locations):
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PCNAs have a mutation that apparently stops the production of tannins early in the growing season. The gene is recessive, so PCNA varieties must be homozygous across all 6 chromosomes. This trait is all or none – astringent only if all 6 chromosomes carry the PCNA mutation.
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PVAs and PVNAs have a mutation that causes seeds to produce ethanol, which causes soluble tannins become insoluble. Insoluble tannins no longer react with saliva. So the tannins are produce but neutralized. This trait is quantitative. It seems that PV varieties may be heterozygous. Some varieties with seeds producing only modest quantities of ethanol become non-astringent (and discolored) only in the vicinity of the seeds; more remote areas remain astringent until the fruit becomes soft (Pollination Variable Astringent – PVA). On the other hand, other varieties with seeds producing more significant quantities of ethanol become non-astringent (and discolored) throughout (Pollination Variant Non-Astringent – PVNA. Perhaps – this is a guess – the PVNAs are more homozygous than the PVAs.
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PCAs – the most common type – have neither mutation. The flesh stays the same whether pollinated / seedy or not. And the flesh remains astringent (Pollination Constant Astringent) – until the fruit becomes 100% ripe and soft.
p.s. This is a description that applies to the Asian persimmon, D. kaki. It seems unknown whether the PCNA mutation would operate similarly in the American persimmon, D. virginiana. It is also unknown whether the PVNA mutation would operate similarly, but my personal guess is that it would not. I base this guess on the observation that American fruits do not seem to respond to exogenous ethanol to reduce astringency.
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So, Asian persimmons are hexaploid?
By the way, Thanks for all this info - it gives me a good start.
Yes. With just a few individual exceptions, Asian persimmons are hexaploid. The northern group of American persimmons is also hexaploid. The southern group is tetraploid. Almost all named American varieties come from the northern race.
OK, Thank you - that gives a good start on sorting the rest of this out.
Hey @TheChonk how did this persimmon do? I’m trying Rosseyanka against a wall and NBxTaishu in a tunnel down in West Cork, but they’re still young yet.
Living in Ar, zone 7a, with only 9 varieties of Asian persimmon to work with my top varieties are : no 1. Giombo,
No 2, Kiungshun bansi,
No 3, Rojo Brilliante.
Sayo is also excellent but just too small.
Very happy with these three. Last year due to a Polar vortex, for the first time in many years they got hit pretty bad, it’s now like starting all over. Dormancy might be a factor. I am heavenly thinking if I should bring out my grafting tools.
Age related!!?.
@aap
Hi Bob, what temps did you see during polar vortex that created the loss of Giombo and KSB, did they suffer as much loss as Rojo?
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Anything below 9* but it also depends on warm temps prior to a polar Vortex.
We experience prior fronts before and didn’t have issues. Temps last winter went down to 6*. It killed a lot of stuff all the way Texas. One Giombo wasn’t hurt at all and one R/B . I have a bunch down the hill, didn’t check them yet.
Some I cut down to about 2 feet above the graft and resprouted but deer did a number on them. Will see what could be salvaged.
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In case you want another, just got email that Cardinal™ Persimmon- 1 gl size | Cloud Mountain Farm Center & Nursery
is available. Interesting that they are limiting sale to 1 only!
Mine is still alive but just 18" after deer munching.
I appreciate the heads up. I considered buying another from One Green World while they were in stock, but I’m reluctant to try and establish and grow another tiny, tiny tree like I got last time. Plus spaces are at a premium.
I’m hoping at some point I can get a couple of scion sticks, and graft to a well established tree. I think I’ll be ahead in the long run by doing that.
I might think differently If I found a decent sized potted tree with significant roots.