I’m pretty new to the forum, but have spent plenty of time reading through old topics. I so appreciate the wealth of knowledge shared here!
I’m planting a cider orchard on Long Island, NY zone 7B. I have a pretty narrow focus: precocious “crabapples” that are on the larger side (think golfball +). Resistant enough to crop well in a low to no spray scenario. Natural growth form leans towards central leader with wide crotch angles. Varieties that fruit so heavily that they have a dwarfing effect on vigorous rootstock. Fruit that shakes out of the tree when ripe. Additional attributes I’m looking for- trees that ripen later in the season, and that don’t bloom to early.
I’m nursing a number of cultivated/seedling varieties, list below:
Chestnut
Whitney
Wickson
Transcendent
Clark’s Crabapple
Narragansett Crabapple (from the Botner collection in Oregon)
Puget Spice
Trailman
Hewes
Brandywine
Martha
Porters Perfection
a number of seedling specimen from Long Island, as well as ones found by fellow pomological friends/cider makers.
Does anyone have any additional varieties/seedlings that I should look into, that meet at least some of the characteristics listed above? I’m also interested to hear about any experiences you have growing fruit in this vein.
Geneva is another red flesh to consider for cider. Kerr, which isn’t red fleshed per se, is supposed to add some pink color to juices/cider as well and is a very nice crab on it’s own.
I had some very nice (to eat) Hewes crabs from a cider orchard in MD, but when I’ve looked around for it, none of the pictures looked like what I actually ate. So there may be a couple of varieties of that one floating around.
Dolgo crab might be worth adding. It’s a red fleshed crab, very acidic but possible to eat out of hand, and often used in cider blends (and occasionally straight). Bloom is early, but extends over a long period, so might work for your needs. Midseason ripening, drops well.
Lots of info online, but here’s one with more info so you don’t have to search: Dolgo Crabapple Tree.
Of the apples I’m familiar on your list, they are all pretty sharp (high acidy), you may want to get some low acidity varieties to blend with. When you ferment off the sugar the tartness can be a bit much, and malolactic fermentation only softens the acidity so much.
Dolgo and Kerr (Dolgo x Wolf River) have a lot of color in the skin and will dye your cider pink, both are similar but Kerr is better for cider as it is not as tart. You are in a much warmer location than me so you can might get stuff to fruit earlier with dwarfing rootstocks- I’m stuck with Antonovka.
I see you’re near Mercer, WI. My cousin lives in that general area. For many years I vacationed for at least a week each summer in the Price/Oneida/Vilas county area. That part of WI is about as close to “God’s country” as you can get IMO.
What apples/crabapples are proving to be winter hardy in your location? I’m on the edge of 3b/4a in central MN.
My orchard in Mercer is pretty young and not yet fruiting. I have found that “hardiness” is not the issue for apples, I’m thinking that ripening is going to be the problem. I’ve got quite a few trees grafted (like Kingston Black, Cox Orange Pippen, Arkansas Black, etc) that are not rated for that cold, but they are quite healthy.
As far as growing, there are a ton of crabs rated for really cold (Bilodeau -aka trail, Kerr, Chestnut) that are popular for cider. I also have taken a bunch of apples from the side of the road (the hard part is remembering where they are in the late winter to get scions). The crabs I’ve taken have ether been on recommendation, or by tasting (and refractometer)… and they all seem to be ripe early. For my cider making I’ve used trees from my back yard in Milwaukee and wild trees.
There is not a lot of agriculture in my county so I plant everything (I’ve got plenty of room for bad choices) - give me 5 years and ill be able to tell you what doesn’t work in zone 3/4. Cortland is pretty good in the area, and I have told Macoun is the best (but haven’t tried it myself yet).
Actually, I mention Hornet as a pollinator…sorry…it clings to the tree through cold months…not the thing you desire.
And most of the red fleshed bloom early…especially the more tannic and acidic ones.
My Golden Hornet is kind of an odd tree. I grafted it in hopes of it blooming late to pollinate Court Pendu Plat. So far, it hasn’t shown the tendency to bloom that late. It is very upright in growth, narrow, and just packed full of spurs. It would still have fruit hanging now if the flying rats (turkeys) hadn’t cleaned it out.
Some apple varieties that proved themselves unable to survive winters here:
Ashmead’s Kernel
Spitzenberg
Hawkeye
Golden Delicious (it survives, but doesn’t grow)
At least two of the Kazak varieties I’ve got grafted also struggle to survive. They keep hanging on, but put on next to zero growth.
I’ve not personally raised Golden Hornet. But, it is used by a lot of commercial orchards as their late pollinator. I have a seedling Y. Delicious that I’m almost positive is fathered by Hornet. (Except for a limb or a couple, it’s becoming another “Frankentree”).
For high sugar, low acid try Yates. Small, could call it a large crab, pretty bulletproof although I hear conflicting reports on Cedar Apple Rust, like people are growing two different Yates. Old Southern heirloom, very late apple, does well on the coastal plain. Should be right down your alley. I grafted it in a bad spot so cut it off, no personal experience. Scott Smith is a fan. If someone says “no spray, low acid cider apple” this is the apple that comes to mind.
Yates could be great but might be too late for Long Island. It is almost too late for me. It is one of my top hopes for cider, it has some astringency and plenty of sugars and relatively lower acid. I am eating them now and they are coming in at around 20 brix on average… that is more a wine grape level of sweetness, not apple level.
For Long Island there are many European cider apples which should work there. It is too hot where I am for them. Noel des Champs for example is a very late one… ripe around Christmas time is what I think the name is getting at.
@hambone@scottfsmith I’m confident that Yates will ripen here, I definitely would like to source some scion this year or next. It’s nice to read your observations of the flavors/chemistry for this apple, Scott.
@Duncandog It’s fair to say that I do love acid-driven ciders. I’ve worked with a high proportion of crabapples (foraged/seedling) making ciders on Long Island with results that I think highly of. Often times with age, in barrel or in bottle, they can turn lush and really settle into themselves. That being said, I definitely want some lower-acid workhorse apples to help stretch out the more edgy crabapples. I’ve been thinking that harrison, chestnut, and a few of the other apples in my list that lean bitter-sweet could provide a good backbone for the tart fruits. Kerr is very intriguing to me and I will definitely seek some scion out!
A lot of the trees from Blue Hill are of interest. It seems pretty hard to catch them with available stock, they sell out in under 24 hours most years!
Try David Vernon at Century Farm Nursery, NC. He knows all about Yates and sells it. He’ll know if it’s too late for your location. It will be a very late apple, in any case.
I don’t know if Kerr would work I’m your neck of the woods but it produces an amazing juice, red and tasting more like cranberry than apple. My daughter doesn’t care for sweet cider but loves sweet cider from Kerr apples. I wanted to ferment some but she drank it all. It is also precocious and a very heavy producer.
I was also impressed with Franklin cider crab apples, the juice is amazing.