Hi folks! I pressed my first set of apples this year and kept 4 gallons to try and make hard cider with. I’ve read several books on the matter and decided to make 4 gallons each in their own bucket to start with so I could experiment with different yeasts and back sweetening. On the 21st I added campden tablets (1 tablet per gallon) let it sit for 24 hours and then I added the yeast. I read that folks typically add about a gram of yeast per gallon but that it didnt hurt to add more. So I added 2.5 grams to each bucket as I had 2 packets and wanted to use it up. I also added yeast nutrient following the directions on the bag (I think it was 1 tablespoon per gallon). I mixed it all together, capped each bucket, and added the air locks. I didnt see any activity in the air locks until about 36 hours later. One of the yeast seemed more active and started before the other. The books talk about a stream of bubbles in the air locks but I never got that. Sort of just like large bubbles pushing their way out now and again. Now - about 5-6 days later I have no bubbles going on at all. I guess I assumed that I might see bubbles for a longer period of time.
I had planned on transferring the gallons to clear glass carboys after primary fermentation but I had also planned that to take 2 weeks.
I guess my question is - is it common for primary fermentation to go this quick? One book suggested to leave it even after the bubbling stops so that things can settle in the bucket before transferring. Some googling led me to a page where they suggested leaving it for a month! So Im a little confused about the timing and my guess is that there’s no right answer here. Just looking for a little guidance as this is my first time. Thanks!
Not sure on timing as I never added yeast or sugar but I do recommend siphoning off above the sediment layer. I would tape a food grade tube to say a yardstick with tube opening a half inch above sediment.
My last batch of cider took basically 5 days to ferment dry from 11 brix. Letting it sit for a couple weeks at least to finish and settle out is a good idea anyways. Assuming you don’t have an air leak or something, 5-6 days is a perfectly reasonable fermentation time.
Congrats! It sounds like a well thought out and executed first effort. Some questions / comments:
Did you rehydrate your yeast using a product such as Go-Ferrm before adding it to the juice? That seems to be best practice and may explain your uneven results. Using Calvin 71B, I reliably get good signs of active fermentation (i.e., a bubbling air lock) in roughly 1 1/2 days. So your 36 hour result seems typical.
How your air lock behaves depends on how much fluid is inside. A lot of fluid means fewer bigger bubbles; less fluid means more frequent smaller bubbles.
Depending on the SG of the juice, there may be enough N without added fertilizer. It helps to measure Brix before starting the ferment then calculate YAN demand. Then compare to likely YAN supply. Add only what’s needed. You don’t want to leave much N for other organisms post-fermentation.
For a juice with a Brix in the low to mid teens, it’s not surprising to get most of the fermentation done in 5-7 days. In my experience, the SG is then slightly above 1 (e.g., 1.006), meaning that the sugar is mostly but not completely gone. It’s a judgment call whether you want to leave any sugar (which can cause later issues) or continue a slow roll down to 1.000 or lower. I prefer a totally dry (no sugar) product but that’s a choice.
Decide whether you want to use additives such as Bentonite to assist the clarification. Also decide whether you want to use Potassium Sorbet to stop yeast replication. Finally decide whether you want a final dose of KMB to deter contaminating organisms. In any case, it is common to siphon 1-2 times to help clarify.
Impossible to say over the internet but your primary fermentation certainly could be done in less than a week. I am not a cider expert but I believe ciders ferment relatively quickly in comparison to beers, wines and meads. When in doubt, taste it - just be sure to use a sanitized ladle or whatever. If it tastes dry then fermentation is done or almost done and if it is still quite sweet your yeast stalled out
Don’t worry about streams of bubbles versus a few big ones, if you’ve got bubbles then you’ve got fermentation going
So I’ll clarify: To metabolize sugars, yeasts require nutrients, especially Nitrogen. The more sugar in a juice, the more nitrogen is required. If there is insufficient Nitrogen, a fermentation will stall before all the sugar is gone.
Some fermentation substrates, most notably the honey/water blend used to make mead, lack sufficient nutrients for a successful fermentation. The remedy is to supplement the must with a nitrogen-rich fertilizer. Some people use an inorganic approach, such as diammonium phosphate. Others use an organic approach, such as hydrolyzed dead yeast (e.g., Fermaid O). Without such fertilizers, you can’t produce a decent mead.
Apple juice has more nutrients than honey. But whether it has enough depends on the amount of sugar (Brix). Ideally, a brewer should check the sugar (Brix) level, calculate the YAN (Yeast-Available Nitrogen) demand, compare it to the estimated YAN supply in the juice, and make up any difference.
Meanwhile, I have no view as to whether a teaspoon of 10-10-10 might spice up your whisky sour.
Wow - awesome. Lots of good info for me to digest here. Thank you! My goal with this first round of cider was to experiment and see what works and learn a few lessons along the way.
The cider I had measured at 1.050 in the hydrometer before I added the yeast FYI and I did just add the yeast directly into the cider with the nutrient. I’ll look into the Go-Ferm stuff you mentioned as I’ve never heard of that.
It will take me a day or two to digest this info and do a little more reading but a couple of quick questions…
I seem to be getting mixed feedback on the amount of yeast I used. My initial research showed that more wasnt harmful and my thinking was that I had two 5 gram packets and I was unlikely to use them before they expired so I just used them up. I got some feedback that when using the nutrient that 1 gram was more than enough per gallon. My confusion though is around the consequences of using more than needed. My thinking was that once all the sugars gone the yeast is done and that’s the end of it. But is it possible to have adverse side effects of adding more than is required?
My assumption was that the goal of primary fermentation was to get the bulk of the fermentation over with but not all of it. That is - its not expected to complete the fermentation during the primary - just to get most of it done. This to me appears to be a rather variable process meaning that the two week guideline given seems to cover most of the bases. But is there any advantage to racking it into the glass bottles sooner if primary fermentation is complete? From what I read secondary fermentation is where a lot of the settling happens but my assumption is that’s also occurring now in the primary fermentation vessel if the fermentation is almost complete. So perhaps the two weeks for primary fermentation should be more like “let it sit for a week after you stop seeing activity in the air lock”? My suspicion is that there’s no hard and fast rule here but Im curious what others do to determine when they do the first racking.
I’ve never had any adverse affects of using more yeast nor have I heard any reports of any
Primary vs secondary fermentation is a blurry line and the time spent in each depends greatly on what you are brewing, the strength, the yeast strain and nutrition the yeast have. The 2 week rule is normal but not a hard rule
Racking more often than needed is just extra work and more loss, you are fine to wait another week or 2 if you want before racking. I have 2 meads going right now that are 5 weeks into fermenting and I haven’t racked them into a secondary yet, it doesn’t hurt anything unless you are fermenting on certain things like fruit skins that you don’t want to overextract
You may have not even started the fermentation, I would measure the brix, if you are not sure about the CO2 production. With use of Camden tablets you sometimes inhibit the yeast even if you wait one day before pitching (recommended). If the brix is still high, then I would stirr the batch vigorously for a few minutes (to help the SO2 generated by the campden tables, which is a gas, to dissipate), then pitch again and put the airlock back on.
Also, the camden tablets need to be crushed before adding to the must, otherwise you’ll get slow steady generation of SO2, which may cause prolonged inhibition of the yeast. Camden tablets are added to kill natural present yeasts, the wine yeast is more resistant, especially if one day has passed to allow for some dissipation of SO2. Some people leave the must open to air during the first day after adding camden tablets, to allow SO2 to dissipate.
If it bubbled for 5 days it had to be fermenting, nothing else would do that. Also I am pretty sure it fermented all the way, cider rarely gets stuck mid-way unless the temps are really cold.
1.050 corresponds to roughly 12.5 Brix, very typical for an apple.
I follow instructions re yeast, which is 1 gm per gallon. I’ve read that using too much yeast can mess up the fermentation, but I have no evidence myself. The yeast that you add quickly replicate (exponentially), growing in number. Yes, when the sugar is gone, the yeast are done – they die. Much of the haze floating in the cider and much of the sediment collecting at the bottom is dead yeast.
I’m no expert on cider. I do know a lot about making mead, so my approach to cider is an adaptation of my mead protocol. I don’t see any hard boundary between primary and secondary. I don’t see any benefit of plastic vs glass. IMO, you just want adequate (not excessive) nutrients and cool temps so the sugar ferments gradually and the yeast are never stressed. When the SG approaches zero, I use Bentonite followed by a racking. Note that Bentonite will tend to reduce remaining N. Then I use Sparkaloid followed by a racking. Meanwhile, the fermentation continues but at a low pace. In other words, the clarification proceeds during the last (slow) stages of fermentation.
I’ve simplified here trying to answer your questions.
If you are making a drink that you do not plan to age for years, it is often better to pitch the yeast at the low end of its temperature tolerance and allow it to warm to room temperature after ~1/5-1/4 of the fermentation has comlpeted. Warmer temperatures and rapid fermentation can result in off flavors, particularly in the early fermentation when the most sugars are present.
Higher alcohols that make your drink harsh are particularly associated with rapid fermentations. In aged wines, the higher alcohols will combine with acids and tannins to produce fruity esters as the wine ages.
For a good fermentation, you will want to know the mineral content of the water that you use and ensure it is not deficient in any vital nutrients. A source of free amino nitrogen may be needed depending on the yeast you use and the dose. Diammonium phosphate works, but you can also use food grade urea if you are not sqeamish about it.
I also suggest using a piece of ‘sacrificial brass’ to get a small amount of zinc into solution. Zinc is highly effective at helping to achieve a full fermentation, but at very low concentration. You can use a length of brass pipe to stir your must, and there is sufficient acidity to leech a small amount of zinc. Zinc is particularly useful when trying to finish a high-gravity fermentation. There is also a product called ‘Servomyces’ that is basically yeast propagated in a zinc-rich environment.
I also agree that it is good to move the fermentation to a secondary vessel for at least 3 days after the primary fermentation has finished.
Take a gravity reading for starters. That will tell you if the cider is done right there. I would also suggest staggering the yeast nutrient for the first three days. Any good yeast nutrient will have plenty of zinc in it. Do not put brass in your cider. Also, you did not mention any oxygenation of the must. That will make your yeast perform like doo doo right there. As far as your fermentation temp, starting low and allowing a freerise is not a bad idea, however, with most yeast strains, if you keep the temp below 70F, you will not have fermetation off flavors. Racking to a secondary vessel is only needed for extended aging.
I’ve never found you need fermentation aides, juice has all the nutrients you need. In fact if I were making a cyser (mead), apple juice is enough that I don’t need the nutrients to fully ferment.
When making a Cider from processed (i.e. more or less sterile or concentrates) juice I use a commercial yeast (I last used S-04 with great results). It will more or less ferment dry in week or so.
When making from apples I use a half dose of sulfide. I will also add wine acids if the pH is above 3.8, sugar if the gravity is low, and tannin if made from culinary apples (there is plenty of yeast on apples- but if you over-sulfide you’ll have to add some- should start bubbling in a week for a wild ferment). This will ferment really slow (months). You must have a very good seal (like a carboy with airlock) or you will make vinegar. Natural ferments have all the microorganisms so you must control the ferment (i.e. pH=low, temperature => stable basement temps, alcohol > 4% (this is debatable), no oxygen (pressing gave it all the 02 it needed but I give a couple inches headspace in the carboy to avoid the mess).
From concentrates I usually rack once when it stops bubbling, then keg when clear, usually a couple weeks, and back sweeten without preservatives, maybe add tannins. The sugar will ferment off in a keg and make it stronger and drier… unless you drink it before that happens. you can go from concentrates to cider in a month or two.
From apples, I might be drinking the batch I pressed this year by the summer.
Bottling adds complexity to the process. Don’t use beer bottles unless it is stabilized or fermented dry and primed with a know amount of sugar (and maybe some yeast if already clear). They will explode if over carbonated.
I’m glad to hear you say that. Making mead, I learned that honey is deficient in most minerals and my well water is a little high in chloride, so I decided to start with distilled water and then add exactly the amounts that seemed optimal based on published research. I mentioned this approach on a mead-making forum and one of the self-appointed experts there ridiculed me.
With apple juice, what I read suggests that plain juice has just about everything needed in the right amounts except potassium. So making cider, that’s the only mineral I add.
Wow - lots of great info here folks. Thank you! It’s clear I have a lot to learn still so Im glad that Im experimenting this year. So I decided to open one of the tubs and check the brix level and it looked dead on to 1 to me so I think I can assume that fermentation has completed. I decided to rack that tub into a gallon glass carboy but leaves the other three in the plastic tubs until I hit the 2 week mark at which point I’ll rack them into the glass carboys too.
I must have screwed up my measuring when I split the cider between the buckets because the one I racked over to the glass 1 gallon carboy wasnt sufficient to get me close to the neck. I happened to have some store bought pasteurized cider so I used that to top it off. Disappointing as I was hoping to use all my own cider but I was reading you really want the carboy filled close to the neck to keep the air off of it.
I tasted some of the cider and it definitely was interesting The recipe I was going off of suggested to let the cider totally finish (up to 2 months) before attempting to back sweeten or add acidity (tannins) so I think I’ll just let it keep going and see what happens.
To answer some of the other questions - Yes I did crush the campden tablets before I mixed them in but I did mix them, put the cover back, and then put them back in the fridge. Still wondering if I should have done this all at room temp.
Again thanks for all the feedback and areas to think about. I’m taking lots of notes and hope to have even more apples next year to press and experiment with!
Aeration of the must is not necessary if you use a fresh dried yeast that was stored properly. Dried wine/beer yeast is good to go out of the package, like rapid rise baker’s yeast.
You don’t “put brass in the cider”, you give it contact for a brief period of time to leech zinc. It is a common practice in German breweries to use ‘sacrificial brass’ or ‘sacrificial copper’ in their breweries because yeast nutrients are verboten. Most yeast nutrients do not contain significant amounts of zinc, which is why a product like servomyces exists.
The recipe I was going off of suggested to let the cider totally finish (up to 2 months) before attempting to back sweeten or add acidity (tannins) so I think I’ll just let it keep going and see what happens.