I donāt really understand persimmon grafting compatibility.
I dug up 3-4 root suckers from my friendās yard 4 years ago. I put one in ground. Over the year, on the inground one, I grafted Morris Burton, Prok, Chuchupaka, Inchon, etc. Only Prok and Morris Burton have survived. The others grafted grew a bit and died.
This year, I grafted 3 more, Garretson, Early Golden and an unknown. The first two are thriving and the unknown did not make it.
I put 3 rootstocks in pot. One rootstock I grafted a JT-02, and another I grafted Rojo Brillante and the third is Prok. All 3 are doing well.
Then, this year, on the Prok in pot, I grafted Tam Kam, Jin Young and 20 C. Grafts grew a few inches and died.
Hereās my one Prok fruit from my potted tree this year. It had 3 but cast two of them pretty early on. It dropped off of the tree today. Couple more days to ripen and itāll be good to go.
In my limited experience, Iāve found that Asian persimmons and some hybrids have a lower take rate on virginiana than American persimmon does. On all my failures, I was later able to regraft with the intended variety later on, so it wasnāt an incompatibility per se. I think itās more that the two pieces have a harder time knitting, so everything has to be spot on. As close to perfect unions as possible, perfect temps, and absolutely no competing growth. Out of the hybrids Iāve tried, Chuchupaka is almost as good as pure American varities (I even successfully grafted year-old scion), JT-02 is about 10% harder, and Ojka had no luck whatsoever. My one Kaki variety (Chinebuli) only had a 25% success rate, but I think I also grafted a little earlier in the season than I should have.
This is a prime example of incompatibility issue. Prok doesnāt like most asians and probably some hybrids as well. Use interstemā¦Mohler or Lehmanās Delight (100-46) are good, or any other virginiana that is friendly with kaki.
I have not been on here for some time, but wanted to share some thoughts on this. SDS (Sudden Death Syndrome) Kaki Decline or whatever you call it. I took note of someoneās comments of never being able to re-graft Kaki to Virginiana rootstock that had prior been lost to decline. I like to take advantage of established root stock so when I lose a tree always allow 3 or 4 trunks on regrowth from lost plants so I have multiple graft attempts and later cull to a single graft I normally have a very high percentage graft results but on these regrowths I was having no success some over multiple years regrafting Kaki. I grow a lot more Kaki but this year grafted 1 Virginiana to each of the 4 trees I was having trouble with in prior years. I was 4 for 4 on the Virginiana and probably like 0 for 12 on Kaki. If you take into account the prior years I am more like 0 for 50 on these Kaki to died back re-growth. When grafting Kaki to virgin rootstock have never kept actual track but I would guess over 80% on initial takes. I much prefer growing Kaki, so now I need to decide to either pull the entire tree after losses and go back with Kaki or dedicate that regrowth to Virginiana grafts.
FWIW, I have had very good results grafting Americans to Prok, specifically H63A, Dollywood, Barbraās Blush and Morris Burton. Iāve also had good results grafting the hybrid JT-02 / Mikkusu. I had good success initially with the Asian variety Miss Kim, though the leaves look somewhat challenged currently (year 2). That might be insects. I had outright total failures with the Asian varieties Giboshi and Saiyo.
I think it can be more than just KSDS in some cases. I have no idea whether it is a 60 or 90 chromosome rootstock, but I have one tree that has thrown off a total of 20 grafts (including chip, bark, whip and tongue and clefts), the last round being all American varieties. I just posted the final failure in the persimmon grafting thread, where I had shown the previous failures and had previously decided it must be KSDS. It looks like it is just a very antisocial rootstock.
For those that leafed out, I think they did have black streak while dying.
@zendog I think I also have anti-social rootstocks. I think the father of my rootstocks is a 40 ft tall male persimmon. It has so many suckers all over that area. I can dig up more if I want but have had enough of persimmons playing hard to get.
@mamuang
It is of my opinion / experience here that the older a persimmon rootstock is the more likely it will get the black veins ( SDS ) , rejecting kaki / hybrids . Once it shows black veins / rejection of kaki , no further attempts will be successful. But pure American varieties will take. So you might reconsider getting root suckers from that 40 ft. Tall tree. Maybe start some from seed instead.
For grafting kaki and hybrids .
Or get some young rootstock somewhere.
Good luck !
Are you getting hit with psyllids down there too? 1st year ive seen them here. maybe they came in on scionwood? they are pretty destructive though, it seems. Im still not sure if all of the foliar stuff Im seeing is 100% them. Perhaps they cause infection with other pathogens. I understand that psyllids are threatening the tamarillo industry in NZ because they cause untreatable disease and fatal decline of trees.
not a great persimmon year here. frost did a number on them. decent bloom and fruit set once they pushed again, but most of the fruit dropped. Similarly, basically no mulberries, quince- all things that have been pretty ironclad here. heres to a banner year next year!
Yes, I have had psyllids. Since thereās no indigenous persimmon population, I speculated earlier that I had imported them on scions or more likely on purchased potted trees. They seem to affect mainly the Asians. Are you getting damage on Americans too?
Iām sorry to hear that your crop is poor this year. Iām planning a trip to Windsor and then Rutland in mid Sept and was thinking about stopping by your place for a tasting. I guess itāll have to be next year.
Iām not surprised to hear it, though. My friend in Rutland lost his apple crop (apples!) and people just a little north of me lost all their preaches.
We just barely managed to avoid severe damage from the cold snaps in mid-May. Iāve had good crops of mulberries and peaches. FYI I really like Early Redhaven. Iāve got good crops coming off apples and pears. My Asian persimmons are either in ārebuildingā phase (IKKJ) after the cold Feb (-7 F) or dropped whatever fruit they had (Saiyo). My hybrids looks good ā my Kassandra tree has a small crop, presumably recovering from last yearās overbearing; my JT-02 grafts on Prok from 2021 have a couple dozen fruits that appear to be starting to color. Finally, my American grafts from 2022 all have fruit so I may get to taste H63A, Dollywood, and Barbraās Blush (though BB has very few). The top-worked Prok also has some fruit. If any of that is ripe by mid Sept and youāre interested, Iāll bring you a sample. Prospects seem best for the JT-02 but Sept may be too early for full ripening.
FWIW Iāve also got two Qing (Chinese chestnut) seedlings that are producing well. You should try them if you havenāt already. Given your land, Iād plant a dozen of some cold hardy Chinese varieties.
What I donāt have is figs from my in-ground trees. The pressure from deer is relentless. I canāt grow anything that isnāt surrounded by a high fence and/or growing out of reach. Potted trees behind a fence are starting to pump out fruit.
@jrd51 ā¦ psyllidsā¦ have been a problem here in TN on my IKKJiroā¦ on all my hybrids and Americans.
Young tender growthā¦ new shoots and leaves from graftā¦ are especially attractive to themā¦
Some of my grafts failedā¦ from repeated psyllid attack. I should have sprayed more often.
I sprayed them initially with Sevin and later on with spinosad. Both seemed to work well but needed to be repeated about every 2 weeks or they were back wearing out that new tender growth again.
I have lots of wild persimmons hereā¦ and they get hit as wellā¦ but on larger trees it does not seem to slow them down any. They grow right on thru it.
Yes, they are bad this year, worst year so far.
They have always been here (Wv.) on the native persimmons.
Seem to cause little significant damage to them and grafted American varieties.
But the Asians and hybrids took a beating this year.
A few normal leafs early on, then bam.All the leafs look bad until mid - late July , since then most new leafs are more normal looking.
There is a small wasp ( forget the name ) that parasitizes them.
I think it finally caught up ?
Going to up my game next year , planting more wild flowers to feed those wasps.
Seems odd that there are reports of them being bad over such a wide area this year,I usually think of pest outbreaks being more localized , in a given year.
I had inquired with our state entomologist about reports of persimmon psyllids in NH. They hadnāt heard any before, but recommended I send samples to them and the curator of insect collections for UNH. I just learned from the UNH guy that his predecessor had found psyllids on his backyard trees in Dover, NH back in 2011. So theyāve definitely been in northern New England a while. I wonder if they can travel pretty far on spring winds, and occasionally they get lucky and find our isolated persimmon patches. Either that, or the density of persimmon plantings in New England is much higher than I assumeā¦
Thatās great info. Do you know whether the NH guys ābackyard treesā were American or Asian? I assume American.
Iām pretty sure that the density of persimmon plantings in New England, especially northern New England, is pretty low. And Iām skeptical about the winds, which would be pushing bugs between widely separated plants. So hereāre two other possibilities: (1) Many or most growers who import trees from nurseries in other regions also import psyllid eggs, creating their own islands of infestation. (2) Persimmon psyllids also infest some native non-persimmons species, which serves as a reservoir. If you forced me to pick, Iād choose #1.
Unfortunately, no. He sent pictures of the collection tag, which just say āpersimmon.ā Iād be willing to bet money that they are straight virginiana, maybe Nikitaās Gift, given the timelines of when varieties were widely available.
Iām not so sure about importing the eggs. From what Iāve read, the adults overwinter in bark crevices of older trees (not necessarily persimmons). Before this, Iāve only brought in scions that I give a bleach bath, cleaned seeds, and bare-root seedlings from MO (which are pretty squeaky clean and donāt have any real bark crevices). Itās possible some came in with all that, but doesnāt seem super likely. At least not significantly more likely than an extremely favorable wind dispersal. I do know some pests (like onion thrips) donāt overwinter in the north, but make their way up every year on the winds. So itās not out of the question for psyllids to do the same thing, but the longest dispersal range Iāve seen quoted is 1 1/2 miles.
I just on Saturday received a potted, actively growing tree from another forum member, so all bets are off now!
