Masbustelo, of course the beetles die if insecticide is applied to them.
But the question is.
The plague is eradicated?
Obviously the answer is no, that is why the biological fight with entomopathogenic fungi is much better.
Regards
Jose
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Yes, animals learn new skills, and then they remember them. My father grew sweet corn for many years with no protection. Then one year a clever squirrel discovered they were good to eat. We never really had any sweet corn after that. There were a couple of years when we had a dog when we harvested a little corn, but even with the dog, it was a fight, and my father turned that land to other crops.
My local squirrels like to eat (and replant) crocus bulbs. A mile away the squirrels don’t know that crocuses are good to eat.
I often get one crop on a new plant before the wildlife learns that it’s good to eat. My first three apricots were delicious. Unfortunately, squirrels harvest 'cots when they are about an inch large.
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To me your comments seem as ignorant as you claim those are who live in different climates that you assume can benefit from your methods to the level you do. There is an organic apple industry in the northeast, but the fundamental tools are Surround and sulfur. The apples tend to be ugly of limited variety and mostly used for cider.
Organic fruit sells at a premium and there are plenty of research scientists in the U.S. that are trying to help farmers realize the profits. There is also a strong desire to reduce the use of poisons to grow food. Do you really believe that in your life you have surpassed these scientists that toil collectively along with industry eager to sell “organic” pesticides which tend to be much more expensive than synthetic alternatives.
In high pressure areas reducing inoculum in ones orchard is helpful but far from a silver bullet. Most of our worst pests easily travel from nearby woods whether fungal, bacterial or insect.
There are thousands of tons of organic fruit grown in this country successfully- 99% of it comes from the west where it rarely rains during the growing season. Does that tell you anything?
Incidentally, to my knowledge, plum curculio is not among pests you have in Europe. It is a native of the U.S. and a quick search doesn’t indicate that it has established in Europe, although there is some concern that it could. Even in the U.S., it is only a native of humid regions.
What concerns me is your super confidence may raise false hopes here. You simply don’t have the experience to speak with genuine authority about growing fruit in regions you’ve never grown it, in my opinion.
When I started growing fruit in the Northeast 30 years ago, I believed in similar false claims distributed by the Rodale press. The beliefs set back productivity and my business by about 2 years.
I do offer an organic, Surround based program for my clients which works OK but is much less productive of storable fruit and brown rot often destroys stone fruit or requires a synthetic intervention. Without the Surround we have no adequate organic tool against plum curculio.
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Jose,
I read with interest about your fruit culture techniques in Spain.
You mentioned Beauveria bassiana is used to control P. Japonica in Spain. Is it common to use the fungus with a trap and release mechanism? That is, a “trap” which inoculates P. Japonica with the fungus, then allows the beetle to go free and spread the fungus to other beetles (since the beetles are highly gregarious)? I’ve read about such “traps”.
On a different note, you may wonder why you are getting some push back on your pest control methods. The reason is that you are encountering people with entirely different growing conditions, which results in very different amounts of pests.
For example, I did an internet search to try to find one of the areas which gets the most summer rainfall in Spain. You can correct me if I’m wrong, but it looks like Pamplona Spain, close to the Atlantic ocean has one of the wettest summers. Here is a bar graph of precipitation in Pamplona Spain:
Now let’s compare that to where my orchard is, just south of Kansas City MO:
The actual annual rainfall is very similar. But notice the graphs are virtually inverse to each other. The summer months (growing season) in Kansas City get by far the most rain, whereas the rain is mostly distributed over the winter months in Pamplona.
This has a dramatic affect on pest pressure. I’ve experienced this first hand, because we will occasionally have a summer drought here, which leaves virtually no insect or fungal pests to deal with. But most years the precipitation matches the average monthly rainfall graph for Kansas City.
It’s probably hard to imagine, if you don’t live here. Even people who live in arid climates in the U.S. have a hard time grasping the difference in pest pressure we have here during the summer months. It’s not that uncommon to have rain during the growing season, where it drizzles every day, all day long, for a whole week. There is no fungicide residue left on the fruit after the first day, and the fruit/foliage is constantly wet for a week. You can walk outside and literally smell the mold in the air.
Again this type of weather gives very high fungal/bacterial/insect pest pressure, which would render dormant oil and dormant copper sprays completely ineffective against summer pests.
Re: Cyproconazole
You may not be aware, but cyproconazole is not labeled for fruits in the U.S. We do have several other FRAC class 3 triazoles we use over here. Fenbuconazole (Indar) which mroot mentioned, is a common one which is very effective in controlling M. fructicola, etc.
Captan, although a preventative, is also very effective in controlling brown rot. It does a good job controlling scab as well. I agree Captan has been around a long time. The reason is that it is still effective. It is virtually impossible for fungal pathogens like brown rot and scab to develop resistance, due to Captan’s multi-site activity against fungi.
Captan is an important part of our anti-fungal toolbox. Largely because of risk of fungal resistance buildup using only DMI or Qol fungicides which target only one site of fungi. I frequently tank mix Captan with a DMI for improved control during very wet periods.
Of course this wouldn’t be as much of a concern in Spain, where much fewer sprays of a DMI were required.
As mroot alluded, it can be difficult for backyard growers to obtain a very effective DMI (such as Indar) because it’s packaged and priced for commercial growers. A one gallon container costs between 3 and 4 hundred dollars and treats 21 acres at the 6 oz./acre rate. Most backyard growers have 1/4 acre or less of fruit trees, which makes purchasing the product in gallon size impractical.
Hence a lot of backyard growers use Captan, as it’s packaged and priced in much smaller quantities. It’s always good to mention, spray water must be acidified before captan is added to the tank.
Again please continue to share your pictures/perspective/techniques, but understand much of the pest control methods which work for you, unfortunately won’t transfer the same result in very wet climates.
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Hi Olpea.
Finally, proper and common sense questions.
In Spain (and in the European Union in general), the restriction on chemical phytosanitary products is extremely restrictive, and each year more and more products are restricted, since the idea of the European Union is aimed at a totally ecological agriculture.
This is extremely appropriate, since we all know that chemo phytosanitary products are not suitable for human health, and it has also been shown that both fungal diseases and pests develop resistance to these treatments.
The question is .
If phytosanitary chemicals such as insecticides and fungicides are restricted, how do farmers defend themselves against these problems?
Well, it is precisely the answer that you are looking for, since the fighting methods are biological.
These types of treatments are much better in every way.
- Effectiveness of eradication of problems
- Development of a more sustainable and environmentally friendly agriculture
The definitive step has not yet been taken, and it will take a few years, but European policy is headed in this direction.
You are now wondering this.
Does an amateur fruit grower in Spain have access to this type of products and treatments?
The answer is totally " YES "
There are many specialized companies that sell online to both professionals and amateurs.
I buy a lot here
To give you just a few examples of products that I use with excellent results, these are some of them.
To avoid problems with larvae of pathogenic insects that enter through the root of the tree, and the larvae make galleries in the tree destroying it (Capnodis Tenebrionis and other lavae of miner beetles)
- Entomopathogenic nematodes “Steinernema carpocapsae or Heterorhabditis bacteriophora”, are inoculated in the trees via irrigation, and they work alone in symbiosis with the tree
Translate this page and you will see how these nematodes work in symbiosis with the tree.
They are tremendously destructive, with larvae and other soil pathogens
To avoid fungal soil problems
For years when I plant my trees (I graft the trees in pots and plant them in winter bare roots), I inoculate the roots when planting with Mycorrhizae and Trichodermas.
I use this product, they are pills that when planting, you put two pills in the roots of each tree (it’s that simple, you don’t have to do anything else), and the tree remains mycorrhized forever.
Mycorrhizae and Trichodermas parasitize any type of fungus that tries to attack the roots of the tree, destroying the fungus and feeding on it.
- Asir Fruit, from the Atens company
https://www.tienda.sercopag.com/producto/asir-fruit-micorriza-trichoderma/
For the control of the fruit fly (Ceratitis Capitata) I use pheromones, this insect is extremely harmful to crops.
I have been using this product for three years and it is a marvel (there is not a single one fly alive), it works by a mechanism that this company calls “attraction and death”, it contains pheromones that attract the fruit fly, and an insecticide, so that just by touching the plate they are dead
- Magnet Med from Suterra company
These are just small examples, since there are products for the biological fight against almost everything, and also the advantage they have is that they are economical, they avoid work, and their effectiveness is tremendous.
As for the more humid regions of Spain, the entire northern area of Spain is very humid, especially the region of Galicia and Navarra.
The case of the Grazalema mountain range in the province of Cadiz (totally in the south of Spain) is anecdotal, since the south is quite arid, and yet the Grazalema mountain range is the area of Spain with the highest rainfall index.
Thanks for your interest and asking these kinds of questions.
Regards
Jose
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https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Organic_farming_statistics
Keep in mind that tree fruit is the most difficult of crops to grow in terms of pest pressure and in 2018 only 7.5% of ALL agriculture was done organically in the European Union.
I grow my vegetables organically, so my personal “agriculture” involves a much higher percentage of organic growing than the E.U.
Ecological is an interesting word. I don’t consider any form of agriculture as being particularly ecological in that it destroys natural eco-systems for a highly controlled and unnatural one. Ecological concerns are not just about destruction via chemicals- relative productivity is just as important because it determines how much land needs to be farmed and theoretically taken out of nature.
In the U.S. the synthetic chemicals being used today in agriculture are changing all the time in favor of less destructive and less persistent materials. This is another definition of evolving to a less environmentally destructive agriculture.
It is certainly a debatable point about whether organic production is more ecological than judicious use of tested synthetic materials if the latter provides larger crops in smaller areas.
I am aware of no research that establishes that conventionally grown produce is less nutritious than organic and farmers who have spent their lives spraying crops with synthetic pesticides seem to not suffer significant health problems as a result. This is results from a 20 year study of 70,000 licensed sprayers and their spouses health compared to the general population in their states.
A subsequent summary from 1,198,129 person-years of data with an average participant follow-up period of 13.4 years found that AHS participants are healthier overall than the general population and less likely to die from all causes:
• Study participants are less likely than the general population to die from heart disease, cancer, diabetes, lung diseases, and liver diseases.
• Rates of smoking-related cancers, such as oral, esophageal, pancreatic, lung, and bladder, are lower or similar to rates in the general population.
• Overall injury deaths were lower, but deaths related to machinery continue to be higher among AHS farmers compared to non-farmers.
• A few cancers are more common among AHS farmers, including prostate cancer. Additional studies are being carried out to learn more about the risk of developing these cancers.
Source: Agricultural Health Study 2012 Update
If you would like a copy of the full study, send me a private message and I will copy and paste it for you. Expected deaths is the average for people living in the states where the farmers live.
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Absolutely false hmmmm. Perhaps I am wrong. I mean I should consider that my understanding of disease and insect pressure in my climate is not correct right? I think that’s possible and of course the same goes for you too right?
How would I go about figuring out which opinion is based on facts and which is not? People following this thread need to do so why don’t I help them since I want them to succeed as backyard growers. I know I will check the literature, references that sort of thing.
Lets start with dormant oil and see how useful it is.
What does the University of California IPM program say about dormant oil. Basically not needed unless you have problems with mites or scale. Here is the link look under the Dormancy section near the top of the page.
http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/C105/m105yi01.html#FRUITDEV
Of course they could be wrong lets check a reference from the hot and humid Midwest provided by Purdue University. Basically no dormant oil but look for yourself on pg 29 of their spray guide-link below.
Ok now lets look at copper. PNW Pest Handbook says it can work for canker but there are problems with resistance in orchards where it is sprayed frequently (commercial orchards). Oh, it also says resistance can develop quickly. All of this is listed in Chemical Control section at the bottom of the page in this link. It’s hardly a universal solution for canker or anything else.
What does the University of California IPM program say about canker and copper. They say " Fall and dormant season copper sprays have been used by some growers to help manage this disease, but research in California orchards has not shown this practice to be consistent or reliably effective. There is also widespread copper resistance in pathogen populations in commercial orchards." It’s under the Management section is this link.
http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/r105101511.html
But Jose you’re saying “If we want to have a healthy orchard and good harvests , the winter treatment is a “MANDATORY” work in our orchards.” No it is not… dormant oil and copper are not very useful. And as far the cherry fruit fly and Japanese beetle dormant oil is useless why? Because the eggs of these never are touched by the oil. Lets look at the cherry fruit first and it’s life cycle. University of Kentucky link.
https://entomology.ca.uky.edu/ef217
UofK-"There are usually 10 days between the fly emergence and egg laying. During this period adults feed on aphid honeydew and other sources. The eggs hatch in about 4 days to one week and the maggots feed for about two weeks. When full grown, they drop to the ground and burrow into the soil. They pupate 1 to 2 inches beneath the soil surface. There is only one generation per year of each fly. "
So the pupated larva overwinter in the soil and are never touched by dormant oil. That’s why you spray insecticide after petal fall to prevent the adults from laying eggs in the fruit and producing a crop of maggot filled fruit.
Ok what about Japanese beetles does dormant oil help with them-nope. The Japanese beetle lays its eggs in the soil and the eggs never are touched by dormant oil. Here is link to Japanese beetles, trapping and their life cycle. Slide 5 has the life cycle.
So again you need to spray an insecticide when the adults are active.
Jose-" what a mania you have whit the Californians" Well the reason I reference California a lot is it’s an easy shorthand for a dry, non-humid climate with relatively low insect and disease pressure. Most people are familiar with the climate of California since the state is in the news and media (films,tv,etc.) frequently.
Ok the hahahahahaha paragraphs. Well I will try to explain to you what you sound like to us that live in hot, humid, wet conditions. It would be the equivalent of me saying to people in California and most of the Western United States that wild fires are low risk and can easily be controlled by some simple cultivating practices on your property. When in fact sometime in the future they may have to flee their homes to avoid being burned alive. I mean there are no wild fires in Illinois why can’t these guys out West not get their acts together and stop having these fires? Well the climate out West is dry- good for growing fruits but bad for wild fires.
Your brown rot and fungicide comments- well Olpea covered better than I could as far as using fungicides. The only thing I will add is sulfur and captan will be still used 100 yrs from now because of their immunity to resistance while Indar and other single mechanism fungicides will be useless in 30 yrs or less due to resistance.
Ok got down to your section on actually dealing with insects directly. For the cherry fruit flies I have never seen any information on trapping, the availability of lures, mating disruption etc. And if they were available Scott would be using them and I would know about them thru the forum. Basically you have two choices spray an insecticide or spray surround.
Japanese beetles can be trapped effectively if you use giant garbage pail traps that completely surround the perimeter of your orchard. My Japanese beetle link above details the studies done and shows you how to make the traps. Not very practical in a suburban backyard most people will spray an insecticide or just ignore them if the damage is light.
As for plum curculio- damage is light and since I spray for cherry flies the insecticide covers plum curculio as well.
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As somebody who grows cherries in Richmond, VA, the cracking is by far my largest problem. Everything cracks, all 8 varieties. Even Montmorency cracks here. And that makes rot & mildew a problem.
The fall leaf spot is also pretty bad.
This year I’m going to try a peroxide/acid two part spray, the ‘italian salad dressing’ mentioned elsewhere on this site.
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Hello Jose,
looks like I am a little late to buy any of the varieties recommended by you. Rocket seems to be sold out for the season. I wasn’t able to find a source for Sweet Lorenz. Do you happen to know a source that doesn’t only do wholesale?
I did find a czech nursery selling a lot of czech varieties. You already mentioned Justyna. Other early cultivars they sell are Kasandra, Narana, Vega, Vanda and Jacinta. Are those winners too?
I would like to ad Rocket as soon as it is available again. There is room for 2 more varieties besides Rocket.
BR
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to my personal preference, the harder the cherry, the better tasting.
as for some of OP’s posts, could be just “lost in translation” due to language barrier
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I’m fluent in Spanish if anyone ever wants some of this translated.
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Hello guys.
Today I write from my mobile phone.
For work reasons I now have very little time to participate in the forum.
In a few days we will talk about fruit trees again.
Norman, you are from Germany, you only need 3 rootstocks for cherry trees, and I will sent you the cuttings of 3 good varieties of cherry suitable for cultivation in Germany in a package to your home.
If you have cherry rootstock available, send me a private message with your address and I will send you the cherry cuttings.
Regards
Jose
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I think you are precisely right. Which is why it’s ridiculous to promote anything as The One, True Way. Or any single variety (or even a short list) as the only varieties of a given fruit worth planting.
We should all be glad that there are people who like to maintain some of the off-beat cherries, apples, peaches, or whatever. They may be on the small side, or prone not to ripen all at once, or have some other “flaw.” But they preserve genetic diversity that we may need down the road.
I don’t think we often give enough thought to terroir as it affects fruit, other than grapes. We seem to understand it for grapes, coffee, even cacao. But it has definite effects on all the rest, too. What might be exceptionally sweet for you might be a little insipid with a hint of a bitter aftertaste grown in my conditions.
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i agree. And may even have different effects on people eating fruits grown in one area. Some cherries and peaches are just a bit too bitter for me, but the person sitting next to me eating the same things think i am hallucinating
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Hello again everyone .
Sorry for the absence for a few days, but I’ve had a lot of work.
After meditating so quietly, and since there are several people who think that his growing fruit conditions are so bad, that it is not worth doing preventive treatments as I had advised you, I have thought about it well.
I think that all of you are right, and that since if you have surrendered to your inclemencies, I will not be the one who has to advise or try to solve your problems, since this would lead, as has been seen, to a dialectical confrontation , totally unsuccessful .
So , if you consider that it is appropriate to continue without doing anything , then I see it fantastic, and I congratulate you for his attitude.
On the other hand, this thread is being distorted, which is about selecting the varieties of cherries with the best characteristics in order to make a good selection that helps in some way to the varietal choice of the members of this forum.
So , we continue the varietal selection with another fantastic variety of cherry.
- Canada Giant Sumgita.
This variety obtained in the Canadian station of Pico Summerland, is considered an improved variety of Summit, since it maintains and even improves the organoleptic characteristics of Summit, but improves its production, which is the defect of the variety Summit.
Features :
-
Size: The Canada Giant cherry has a caliber or thick-very thick size, 28-30 mm.
-
Flavor: The Canada cherry variety is a variety with a very good flavor.
-
Firmness: The Canada Giant cherry is medium-high firm
-
Cracking resistance: Canada Giant, has good cracking resistance
Description of the variety according to SORS:
- Canada Giant: Is a mid-season variety with a large size, shiny intensely red skin, very firm and juicy flesh, good flavor and a very low susceptibility to cracking.
I have both Summit and Canada Giant in my orchard and they are both fantastic, personally I prefer Canada Giant .
Regards
Jose
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Scott: How long did it take for your White Gold to bear fruit? We are in Maryland and planted a White Gold in March 2017. So far, no fruit although it is growing well. It is near to a Bing and Jubileum. Hopefully I picked a correct pollinator although the web says it is self-pollinating.
It was a long time ago but my vague memory is it was pretty fast… 3-4 years.
I only have a white gold and it is most definitely self fertile. I only want one tree as I’m not a super huge fan of sweet cherries. Only good for fresh eating. I much prefer tart cherries.I do have a second cherry tree but it’s at my cottage. I also have added a few cherries as grafts now. The tree fruited a couple times before I added the grafts.
Here i use a few sprays and get flawless cherries in the Midwest. Brown rot has not been an issue for me. The sprays work in this location.
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I have a White Gold on G-5. It bore two cherries the year I planted it, but a deer ate them before they were ripe. I think the rootstock will play a big part in when the tree bears.
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