Has anyone tried both leucodermis and occidentalis raspberries and can share their experience with respect to their taste and texture? Are they very similar or are they distinct? Or is there more significant differences within cultivars of each (jewel vs Ohio Treasure vs Born Free vs munger vs…)? I am also curious if anyone can share experiences with other rubus species that are less common than idaeus.
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A bit of breeding and selection has been done with R. occidentalis so there are easily better specimens available of that species. R. leucodermis has not undergone such rigorous selection and you generally will only see generic wild forms available of this species rather than selected cultivars. The wild R. leucodermis I have sampled have been rather small fruited with less productivity and less flavor than the superior select clones of R. occidentalis which are readily available.
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Thank you! I will stick with improved varieties of occidentalis then.
I haven’t tasted either of them but I planted leucodermis this year and will report back in 2 years lol! (if the plant survives)
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Forager Samuel Thayer says they are nearly Identical, I haven’t noticed much difference. They might as well be the same species, or at least 2 different subspecies.
I’ve never encountered or Tried Rubus leucodermis but I really feel like I’m not missing much. The Wild Rubus occidentalis I did try on the East Coast are Delicious, I prefer them over the Red Raspberry Rubus idaeus, because they are less tangy & more sweet. I’ve only tried wild Black Raspberry so I can’t say how much the cultivars have improved on it.
I also did find an Albino Black Raspberry, quite Rare just growing in Waste Ground (It’s all been destroyed by new Construction). But they tasted very sweet & even less Tangy.
Oh mama! Rubus is INSANELY Diverse, there are WAYYYY to many incredible wild species to list worth growing, investigating & breeding with.
Wineberry (Rubus phoenicolasis) is Incredible, easily whoops the Red Raspberries ass in flavor department, much sweeter, less tangy with more complex flavors (At least from the Grocery Store Raspberry, so maybe not fair comparison). However They are even more delicate than Rubus idaeus but can easily fruit in Shade.
There are also wild Dewberries (Just a Low Growing Blackberry with slightly bigger fruit). They are delicious, way much better than the "native’ nasty blackberries in my local area.
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I think i have tried them all. At least the ones available to me.
Here in my location this is my observation-
Jewel is the best for quantity… like for making jam.
Allen was similar… maybe a tad more productive.
Bristol/Munger - not really worth growing if you have Jewel. Bristol/Munger was used as a parent for Jewel so Jewel is improved.
The rest of them for the most part are just wild finds from 50-100 years or so… New Logan, Blackhawk etc etc. berries are small. Good for birds.
Black Delicious was a wild find but it was larger than the old ones. Perhaps its a seedling of something good. Nothing really special.
Mac Black is different. There is some red or purple raspberry in there somewhere. Im keeping it.
Ohio Treasure is different- it has some red raspberry mixed in… so its a purplish black to me. im keeping it.
Royalty and Brandywine are much more rewarding and less of a hassle i think… they are purples but much more flavor than any of my black rasps. Much larger size as well.
The only real reason to grow black rasps is nostalgia or if you are chasing some kind of antioxidant reward. Getting the seeds out is a chore when making jams also.
Thats my take and YMMV…
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Can you expand on Mac Black and Ohio Treasure? Compare and contrast them more if you can.
I believe I saw you post on a different thread about amethyst being the best purple. More so than royalty. Which do you favor now?
Thanks!
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Amethyst ripens here so far during my rainy spring. My first year of it fruiting was the best… too much water makes them tasteless to me. Ultra productive but a total waste when flavor is watered down. Perhaps if i mounded them or heavily amended with sand things would change.
Mac Black and Ohio Treasure seem to have more tartness/acid/complexity to me. The other black rasps just seem bland in comparision.
However if one were to only grow jewel and have nothing to compare it to i can see where it would be a good one.
So i reckon to me the ones i like are more dessert quality vs… production and quantity.
Other cultivars like bristol/munger/allen etc would be best for jams jellies… with sugar and lemon juice to overcome their lack of complexity and sweetness.
So i guess it just depends on your goals/needs.
I cant comment on Glencoe or Tahi both have issues for me here and RCB favors them heavily at my location.
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I love wine berry. The only reason I don’t plan on planting it is because it grows wild in the neighborhood 
the birds are stealth gardening for me!
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I have grown Jewel for three growing seasons (two fruiting seasons) and it has very vigorous growth, more than any other raspberry variety in my collection. Glad I grew it in a large container only. The yield is good and so is the taste, but the flavor isn’t as good as some of my other raspberry varieties like Caroline or Anne.
After reading through the forum, it seems that Bristol (Munger) has better flavor than Jewel, which is why I gave away my Jewel and grew Bristol this past year and will hopefully be able to taste Bristol next year. I am planning to try Ohio’s Treasure this upcoming year as well.
I’m primarily interested in flavor but if I can find a variety which has a combination of excellent flavor and high yields, that would be ideal.
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This thread didnt talk much about flavor (good, versus very good) but shows that jewel has very large berries, and is not likely to take over your garden (which could be a pro or a con). Some mention the yield decreases (possibly due to some illness)
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anyone try Pequot lake black rasp. sold by honeyberry USA and Hartmann’s? supposedly much more productive than other blacks. i ordered 3 for this spring. my 5 amethyst should produce for me this summer for the 1st time.
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Yes. Nothing special for me. Jim Fruth planted seeds from some berries he got at a farmers market. He was an excellent salesman.
Remind me if u want Wyoming purple rasp. Im not interested in it and want someone who will keep them going.
I have read reports of Mac Black in ND… so to me that would be a better choice if other black rasps dont do well.
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i have purples but no blacks as many arent hardy here. pequot are. why im trying them. id try the wyomings. do they stay put like the blacks or runner like the reds? ill try putting them in the row with the Pequots.
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They stay put for me… big canes like Amethyst etc. Bernis has been trying for a few years to get Pequot Blackberry going but it hasnt worked out. There are also those blackberries that you and me talked about… that were pricy.
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I have both growing side by side. The occidentalis grows wild in my yard (Zone 7 MD) and is not a cultivar. That taste is good but the berries are smaller. I purchased leucodermis from a West Coast nursery. It struggled in full sun and the humidity. I had it in a grow bag and moved it to a spot with morning sun and afternoon shade. It root tipped itself into the ground and has been growing decent. Both seem to grow slow, sending up only a few canes each year, but that could be due to them being wild. The flavor of luecodermis was decent, but Inhad way more occidentalis to eat since they are all over my yard. One big difference is the amount of thorns on leucodermis. The stems are just covered with them. While occidentalis is similar to a rose stem with alternating thorns.
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Here are pics Intook for another chat
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Yea, I’ve heard the same complaints too about Black raspberries being seedy. I mostly just melt them in my mouth & spit out or swallow the seeds. Altho I also noticed some Red Raspberries being seedy too but not nearly as much.
Fantastic! Have you thought about crossing Wineberry with Black Raspberry? The flowering times almost line up but are typically off just by 1 month (The Edges of their flowering periods may line up).
Interesting, I’ve noticed about the same level of Thorniness on some of my Local Wild Black Raspberry (Rubus occidentalis), others were less thorny.
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