Strawberry x Raspberry hybrid

[BerryAllen]

Thanks for the explanation.

So it not only took the tetraploidazation of fragaria vesca, but also an unreduced gamete from the 6x hybrid derived from it to arrive at f. vescana.

I’m sure they were hoping to get lucky with the hexaploid generation but those were apparently bunk, so instead of 1/3 fragaria vesca ancestry they got 1/5 plus what ever fragaria vesca genes were already present in fragaria x ananassa.

That’s alotta work (and a bit of luck) to get there and the outcome still isn’t good enough for commercial production. The industry’s obsession with yield seems to make it really hard to introduce new cultivars with any commercial potential.

What I really wanna know is, do they have the fragaria vesca taste?

[JohannsGarden]

@BerryAllen

What I really wanna know is, do they have the fragaria vesca taste?

The reference I found claims the cultivar ‘Sara’ tastes more like F. vesca than its mother does. We’ll find out soon enough I’m sure.

Were you able to also get F. ×vescana ‘Rebecka’? It’s supposed to produce well with an intense “vesca” like taste.

[BerryAllen]

Thanks. No, I only have Sara at the moment. I’m looking forward to the berries.

[Caesar]

Wow! Sign me up for some surplus! I’m surprised you got the 4X Mignonette, it was unavailable when last I asked, and I was under the impression they lost that variety.

Strawberries seem much easier to germinate, in my experience, compared to Rubus. I finally got my hands on the seeds from the original batch that produced the 4X Mignonette (two vials, Mig4 and Mig5), but we’ll still need to test the plants for chromosome count. They’re currently in the Freezer, but I hope to plant them out soon, circumstances permitting.

I lost my Comarum hybrids and the male Moschata, but I still have the Capron female, the Florika X Moschata, and I recently received Guelph SO1 (a “synthetic Octaploid” hybrid of Moschata and Nubicola), Vescana (both Sara and Rebecka) and Bifera. I’m gonna try to multiply them as well for interested parties (since they’re clearly not commercially available). If anyone has a male musk they can trade, I’d appreciate it (Profumata too).

[JohannsGarden]

@Caesar

I’m surprised you got the 4X Mignonette, it was unavailable when last I asked, and I was under the impression they lost that variety.

It doesn’t set runners so can only be cloned by taking cuttings of growing points. That probably is why it’s unavailable most of the time. I would imagine it would produce tetraploid seedlings very reliably though if it were isolated to ensure self pollination.

The ‘Mignonette 4x’ cuttings I got are surviving but definitely establishing more slowly than other varieties acquired as stolon pieces.

@Caesar

I lost my Comarum hybrids and the male Moschata

I have a (Russian) male F. moschata clone. It is less vigorous than my females, but gets the pollination job done. I’m actualy growing out a bunch of F. moschata seedlings right now to produce more males cause I’d like to evaluate their rage of variability to see if I can find any superior male that might offer clone worthy traits.

[BerryAllen]

Nice collection of different ploidy levels you guys have.

I might have some f. mosca seeds from a self fertile hermaphrodite plant. (Askungen?) I’ll have to check how many.

[BerryAllen]

What is the comarum hybrid you’re referring to?

[Caesar]

I think one of them was Frel. Pink-flowered strawberries. Their loss was due to neglect (the preventable losses are always the most bitter for me). My current plants are being well taken care of.

[Caesar]

My strawberries are doing better than ever now that I’ve divided and up-potted them with good soil (mostly pro-mix), and with dishes under the pot to help maintain humidity. I didn’t divide the ones that were tightly bound together, just the ones I could pry apart. The odd hybrids (Florika x Moschata and Guelph SO1) are the largest and lushest specimens so far. Capron (Moschata) has bounced back from my neglect, but I’m still waiting for it to start runnering again so I can propagate it. Bifera is already starting to produce runners, Fern has 5 flowers so far, and Rebecka (one of the Vescanas) has 6, some of them already pollinated and forming fruit! I also have a berried unidentified specimen that might be Seascape, but who really knows…

I also placed an order with Raintree for a Profumata di Tortona and a Male Musk, and a “Lipstick” Comarum hybrid, as well as a “Rubra” Rugosa rose (and incidentally a male hardy Kiwi for my Ken’s Red). My last try with them was mostly satisfactory (other than the damaged male musk), but $45 shipping is expensive, and their plants aren’t always cheap either.

⁂

Edit: Whoops! Forgot to post the photos.

The plants are living on my roof now.

[Kaki-pistacia]

I didn’t read all the posts, but I have my strong doubts that there really is a strawberry-raspberry hybrid

[JohannsGarden]

My suspicion is that the strawberry raspberry (purported) hybrid may have some residual raspberry genes from the attempted hybridization, but is mostly strawberry. I am aware that sometimes in incompatible hybrids the embryo will sometimes begin development after receiving pollen from a different species only to later kill off the chromosomes from the pollen donor and replace them by doubling the chromosomes of the female parent. When this happens sometimes a few random genes from the pollen parent survive resulting in something that kind of is not a full hybrid, but still no longer 100% pure. I don’t know what the terminology is for this process, but remember reading about this sort of thing happening with some plants in the Asteraceae. It was in some research papers and they had actually done pretty thorough testing it seemed so I don’t think it was just speculation.

[Kaki-pistacia]

@JohannsGarden

. I am aware that sometimes in incompatible hybrids the embryo will sometimes begin development after receiving pollen from a different species only to later kill off the chromosomes from the pollen donor and replace them by doubling the chromosomes of the female parent

Interesting.

I know that crossings are possible with Fragaria and other species. and if the chromosome number fits Fragaria can be crossed relatively easily.
But often nothing useful comes out of it.

but when you start crossing strawberries you should be very organized, you will quickly have hundreds of seedlings. and if you lose the tag or the color comes off from the rain, after two years you no longer know what you crossed

but I can’t find anything about this hybrid except in the blog.

there are many people who have tried it, but do not share their “failure” because it would be embarrassing to have even tried it.

I assume that Rubus is too far from Fragaria.

[JohannsGarden]

I’m not aware of anyone who has used either tetraploid or octaploid Fragaria crossed with tetraploid Rubus. In my opinion this combination would have at least a strong theoretical chance of working.

[Caesar]

@Kaki-pistacia

but I can’t find anything about this hybrid except in the blog.

there are many people who have tried it, but do not share their “failure” because it would be embarrassing to have even tried it.

I assume that Rubus is too far from Fragaria.

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Burbank/Burbank_raspXstraw.html

Burbank succeeded in the late 1800’s, but it was an unfruitful plant. The prevailing hypothesis here is that disparate ploidy levels (2x Rubus × 8x Fragaria) were the cause of its unproductiveness, and that compatible ploidy levels might yield equal and superior results (both at 2x – perhaps unlikely –, both at 4x, or 4x × 8x).

[Caesar]

I keep forgetting to take photos, but my Fragaria ×bifera is throwing out stolons like gangbusters, it’s insane! Should I also be propagating bifera for trade? The particular strain I have is this one: PI 551744 GRIN-Global

According to the page, it’s an evenly-split diploid hybrid between wild F. vesca and F. viridis material, though apparently crossed by breeders, and it’s Everbearing/Day-neutral. I was hoping to cross it and my vescas (which I’ll be planting soon) with the Capron Musk to make tetraploids.

This next link treats diploid bifera as a separate hybrid (F. ×hagenbachiana), reserving the previous moniker for triploid forms. While focusing on the triploid bifera, it mentions tetraploid hybrids between moschata × vesca (F. ×intermedia) and moschata × viridis (F. ×neglecta), so there’s precedent for it!

Characterization of an allotriploid strawberry Fragaria × bifera Duchesne (Rosaceae) from Europe.pdf (477.8 KB)

This last one focuses on the sex determination mechanisms in F. moschata, but studies them by making tetraploid hybrids (and examining some natural ones) between moschata × vesca, moschata × viridis, and even moschata × ×bifera. This is exciting stuff, and bodes well for the breeding experiments I’m going to undertake. They also reference the possibility that these hybrids might have value as garden berries. I definitely think so, especially with how aromatic and flavorful the parent species are.

Hermaphroditism in Fragaria moschata.pdf (8.4 MB)

My biggest concern is the possibility that F. moschata might not flower for me, especially if it needs winter chill. I’m willing to experiment with gibberellic acid if I can get it. I’ve only grown moschata once from seed, losing them during a neglectful period (never again, the plants are on the roof now, where the weeds can’t swallow them). They never flowered for me, but they might not have been old enough to do so, or perhaps their pots were too small and stifling (I never fertilized them the way I do now). The day-neutral trait is vital for producing strawberries in the tropics, june-bearers bear poorly here (I fruited Cabot a couple of times, but it had arrived from cold storage).

If I can coax a flower from moschata in time with the diploids, I can shoot my shot and aim for the tetraploids. Beyond health, vigor and disease resistance, my first selection criteria is for day-neutral production, and my second criteria is for flavor. If I can get a day-neutral, self-pollinating tetraploid with full moschata flavor, I’ll consider it a success.

Now if we could only find some tetraploid Raspberries, for the endgame. Mirroring the strawberry issue, primocane-fruiting is a must. While I’m not done trying, I’ve yet to have any floricane berries on any of the Rubus I’m growing right now. I’m ignorant of the selection of tetraploid raspberry cultivars, but I fear there may be no primocane fruiters among them. That said, I’ve heard of gibberellin being used to fruit blackberries in warm climates, so I may have a chance.

@JohannsGarden How are your tetraploids doing? I’m gonna plant my Mig4 and Mig5 seeds when the diploid seeds arrive, so I’ll probably send some leaves for ploidy testing later this year, if I’m successful.

[JohannsGarden]

I suspect F. moschata might need a cool period to initiate bloom since it is mostly a once a year bloomer, but I do occasionally get some sporadic fall blooms within my patch so I would think that means there are some genetic traits which might pop up now and then which allow for bloom that isn’t as linked to the seasons.

The two tetraploid Fragaria accessions I got last year did both establish for me. The 4x Mignonette was slow to establish (probably because it doesn’t produce runners and had to be started from cuttings which don’t root as quickly as plantlets along runners). I expect I’ll need to let it grow at least another full year before trying to take any cuttings from it. The other tetraploid, Fragaria tibetica established much more quickly and produced some runners so I’ll be curious to see what it does this year. It has very small stature compared to all other Fragaria I’ve grown and the stolons are very long and thin. I definitely won’t have to worry about confusing it with any of the other types I’m growing.

Fingers crossed I’ll get germination from the tetraploid raspberry seeds I got. I was only able to get five seeds, but I have hope. The only other time I’ve intentionally planted raspberry seeds (normal diploid) they germinated easily enough so my climate seems to be right for it.

[Caesar]

In the first pair of photos you can see the strawberry flowers being pollinated by Electric Fire Ants (Wasmannia auropunctata). Those suckers sting like crazy!

In the next photo, the first F. ×vescana berries (I think it was Rebecka). I actually picked the first today, prematurely (I regret my impatience).

Then there’s Fern, the F. ×ananassa parent of most vescanas.

And the F. ×bifera, with extensive runners.

And finally, I gotta ask… Do I have good odds of success crossing 8x Strawberry with 4x Rubus? It’s not a raspberry, but my Prime Ark Freedom has been fruiting like crazy, and it’s still actively flowering (note: the heat damage seems not to have a negative impact on berry flavor). I’m thinking of harvesting some pollen and emasculating the next ananassa flower I see, and trying my shot. I forgot how long to dry the pollen for… ¿Does anyone remember? ¿And how do I store it?

[JohannsGarden]

I think you should try with the blackberry cross, but don’t get discouraged if it doesn’t work because both the 8x blackberry and the 8x strawberry will already be hybrids making it higher likelihood for chromosome pairing issues in the offspring (if any).

[Caesar]

This is a bit of a tangent from the title topic (perhaps I should make another post?), but here goes. I’ve picked a few extra vescanas recently, and my mind was blown! Intense vesca flavor, sweet & slightly acidic, with the texture of a melting, juicy ananassa. No runners yet, but I anticipate they’ll be prolific in that regard; they’re said to form long-lived “meadow” style cultures, less prone to senescence than ananassa types. My plants are loaded with blooms and though small compared to ananassa, the fruits are bigger than the vescas I’ve fruited. Why aren’t more people growing these? They seem like the ideal home strawberry.

I ate them before taking pics, so here’s some immature fruit:

[JohannsGarden]

My tetraploid, hermaphrodite clone of Fragaria thibetica is going into its second year now and starting to produce lots of five lobed leaves. I bet this thing would successfully cross with a tetraploid Rubus. Hopefully it’ll fruit this year so I can document it, but I expect it will be very small.

Interestingly the runners on this species (which appear to be growing earlier than all my other strawberries) don’t terminate it plantlets at the runner tips, but rather at every node along the runner. Yes, I know regular strawberries can produce multiple plantlets along the runners, but for them it’s typically a terminal plantlet then the runner continues, another terminal plantlet and then the runner continues. More choppy than the continuous string like runner of F. thibetica.