The half-life of neonicotinoids


#41

Ummm… I’m not questioning your credentials or your skill. I’m sure you are very well versed in applicator knowledge far more than I am.

However, I’m just making clear I understand the regulations well, because some of the claims on the regulations regarding neonicotinoids aren’t strictly true. I like to think we’re all mature enough to recognize that scientific claims should be well founded and sourced. We all can agree on that no? I think we’re all here to learn, so making sure we share the correct information benefits us all.

It doesn’t seem that neonicotinoids are required for nursery stock though either. It’s not just produce. The quarantine prohibits the sale of all host citrus stock.

There are various requirements in place for the movement of host fruit and host nursery stock. The restrictions that the quarantine imposes are that host plants, and portions thereof, cannot move out of the quarantine area. The quarantine prevents the sale of all host nursery stock and the movement of all host plants within a five-mile radius, and it applies to residents and commercial operations.

The regulations seem to make it such that you don’t have to spray nursery stock (if you so chose), simply because movement isn’t allowed.

Spraying or not spraying doesn’t seems to matter at all for nursery stock.


#42

Spinosad kills plum curculio adults and if sprayed at dusk after bees stop flying it has very little effect on most beneficial pollinators as the bacteria lodges in the leaves and needs to be ingested to be fatal. You could try one of the Rosemary or Thyme sprays should kill on contact and stick around to deter for a while or a sulfur spray.

I have seen others on here have negative results with beneficial nematodes but i believe they are very beneficial after you stop using other chemicals which they are very weak too. I wanted at one point to link this educational / science video i saw about how once plants receive neonictinoids they stop using there chemical signals in the roots to call in beneficial nematodes but i cannot find it. I feel if people applied nematodes later in the day and watered them in and applied them during the larval phases of the bugs they want to kill they would see the positive results others report. You absolutely cannot put them in a sprayer or container that has had other pesticides in it previously and once putting them in water should disperse them within a hour or so.

I very much recommend the triple pack of HB / SF / SC as a multipurpose predator and if you live somewhere with fleas repeated applications in spring and fall of SC can wipe out fleas (as well as removing carpet and places for them to live inside). I believe SF is most effective on plum curculio with SC being second but HB is very effective and will move in soil while the others are more ambush predators and not all life cycles move.


#43

I think drug cocktails in general are going to be more effective simply because you cover your bases with resistance.

I always understood Spinosad to be poor solution to PC. I’d love to read more though if you have some sources.

A fruit advisor friend was told by a product rep that “even though spinosad lacks efficacy enough to put curculio on the label, it does indeed have substantial activity against PC.” The rep then want on to say spinosad gave about 50% control. That said, Cornell rates Entrust a big fat zero for PC. Penn State gives it a “poor” rating meaning it does have a tad of recognizable impact by itself. A dose applied with the refined kaolin clay is what makes the difference.

Entrust is spinosad formulation.
Source

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#44

I’ve given you my sources.


#45

Credentials aren’t sources. Like any good researcher I want primary citation.

If we always trusted people with credentials to their every word, no one would win parking dismissals because of procedural noncompliance, contractors would never get building codes wrong, and huge tax write offs for some of the most frivolous purchases wouldn’t be possible. You’re human like me and as the saying goes - to err is human; to forgive, divine.

But if you’re going to press your points, so am I.

According to the CDFA, Plant Health & Prevention Service, Emergency Quarantine Response division which enforces the CPDPP, I can verify each of my points. 916-654-0312

Neonicotinoids are not required for nursery stock. If you are within the quarantine zone, you can get a QC Permit 1378 for Intrastate Movement of Untreated and Untagged Nursery Stock. This exception allows certified organic growers and homeowners to buy untreated citrus nursery stock should they so choose. This is in full compliance with the CPDPP.

This is common sense. There’s has to exist a procedural mechanism for organic citrus farms in California to replace nursery stock. Much as there has to be a mechanism for organic citrus farms to not spray and still stay complaint. On any farm, even conventional, there is no strict requirement to spray or drench by the statute. Propagation is possible within that plot without spraying. It cannot be sold without the QC 1378 exception. Produce doesn’t have to come from sprayed trees so long as it passes inspection for “field cleaned by machine” or “post-harvest treatment.”

This is a very strong claim. This should be sourced. All the published material by CDFA monitoring that you referencing do not back up this claim. In 2017, the published state-level date of the CDFA monitoring service indicates a 4% of noncompliance with conventional grown samples (149 of 3695). 72% of that 4% (107 out of 149) was from out of country. Organic had 1% of noncompliance (3 out of 288), and 66% of 1% (2 of 3) were from out of country.

Unless you’re mistakenly citing a private monitoring service or the harvest within a specific window of a specific county, CDFA has no such data within their previously published literature at the state-level in aggregate.


#46

Perhaps you read the paragraph too fast?


#47

So I’m suppose to just take your word?

In all of your replies you’ve offered no primary source. There exist not a single link included with any of your claims for all of your replies. Not a single link other than the first post which is a secondary source.


#48

No, you can go look it up yourself.


#49

I did. I have given plenty of citations, and even given you a permit number, regulation numbers, EPA guidelines, CDFA documentation.

You have given none, absolutely zero. Anyone with a science degree should know the difference between a primary and secondary source, and moreover, know the importance.

I can admit when I’m wrong. I asked for your sources. I’m here to learn. Can you do the same?


#50

The agencies send notices which I read, make notes, and discard. Their agents show up 4 times a year with verbal instructions and sometimes hardcopy. I discuss pest management in person monthly with the PCAs at CPS in San Marcos.

That’s all I have for you. If it’s not enough I’m sorry. I do not engage in duels of internet references. Best wishes to you in your quest.


#51

Now you’re deflecting; deferring the responsibility of the accuracy of the information onto others.

All of my references are primary sources. I’m sadden we’ve come to a point in our dialogue that you cannot acknowledge the difference between a government website and government supplied monitoring studies, GIS reports, documentation, forms, and applications and a random blog post.

If you’re just going to lump and dismiss everything as a big bag of “internet references” there’s little point to anyone’s reliance on this forum. It’s a logical fallacy. It’s just a big bag of “internet references.”

By your logic, credentials should give absolute weight to your statements, but I would suggest to parse your claims more carefully in the future. The appearance of knowledge is less important than the pursuit. Otherwise there shouldn’t be a single person on this forum more knowledgeable on any single subject matter than a Master Gardener or a car enthusiast to a ASE mechanic.


#52

I didn’t even know that PC was a problem in CO. Is it?

I just looked up the label of Spinosad and there is no reference of controlling PC or any other non lep. apple pests.


#53

Not sure how up to date these distribution maps are. Looks like they just clip a bit of CO.

source

source

differentiation between northern and southern PC groups.


#54

Not even close thankfully. I definitely shouldn’t have chimed in as rutgers would know much better than I and although I have heard spinosad was very effective on the moths and decently effective on the weevils as long as a sugar sticker was applied (I’m sure rutgers wouldnt use a regular surfactant / sticker that would kill the bacteria) Its hard to think that the university studies wouldn’t be well balanced (comparing 1 treatment of spinosad with 1 treatment of neonictinoids wouldn’t be a fair comparison).

I very much think coctails are important to reduce immunity for bugs and diseases and make life easier and multipurpose for applications and reading on here I basically assume everyone with stone fruit would be using kaolin clay. My main comment was just trying to give alternate options for people wanting to preserve there beneficial insects and still kill the pests. I know alot of times spinosad is effectively mixed with BT and bacillus subtilis and bacillus amyloliquefaceans or Bueavaria Bassania.

I was going off of this which is a old link from University of minnesota also a place with probably not alot of PC

However i have found spinosad to be very effective against a host of things it is not labeled for including sand fleas and many other pests. Its sad that surround discourages organic/local fresh customers from buying your produce and leaves them feeling there is more pesticides / fungicides on there produce and I definitely feel for you there and believe you do your best to make healthy produce and a living. Certainly the pressure on the East Coast is high.

Here is a thing on venerate which is listed for PC


#55

Yes, we are lucky further north with much less PC pressure than further down, it is intense but short so two sprays can usually handle it here.

Richard, I was a hardcore organic grower when I moved east many decades ago. The extreme pest pressure here broke me, although now that Surround is around we at least have a decent non-toxic defense against most insect pests, but it is such a pain to apply and makes the trees look like ghosts. Most of my customers won’t stand for it.


#56

Found the primary source for that quote I cited earlier about Penn State and PC.

source

The Penn State pesticide efficacy chart is a just null for spinosad and PC.


#57

I actually have that article from the
https://www.groworganicapples.com site you linked on another one of my tabs, pretty interesting stuff (to me, anyway). Looking through other articles on the site now.


#58

There is a lot of information on that site. I only found it the other day. :slight_smile:

Seems like a good resource, probably a good way to connect with local orchards to get a head start since they will likely have more extensive experience with a wider range of cultivars for a shared zone or microclimate. My bigger concern for apples is grafting like vigor with like, otherwise you get these weird growth patterns.


#59

I’m buying from places that do not use neonicotinoids or similar chemicals. I’ve noticed an increase in the number of beneficial insects in my yard since I stopped buying from those places. Just my experience.


#60

Some good news on that front. A new method of plastic production makes it 100% recyclable. We need to start making all plastics this way, it is unacceptable the current situation, I concur.