“As of July” meant I checked in the beginning of July and saw about 40% damage. I did the last spray in early June.
So you sprayed at double strength, at petal fall, at 10-14 day intervals? You are certain damage wasn’t done before first spray?
This year I have damage at some sites in spite of a pretty solid program because PC showed up so early and cropping is generally light. I wait until last apples drop their petals so lots of fruitlets are vulnerable for several days- all except late blooming apples. If you have a light crop 40% damage may not be acceptable but if the crop is heavy it isn’t a big deal, but the percentage of damage tends to be much greater when cropping is light.
Would you have expected nearly 100% damage without spray?
I didn’t keep records and was casual with my spray program and observations. I don’t remember seeing any damage at the time of my second spray. Next year I’ll keep records.
All my comments where about PC damage on plums and plouts and I’ve only had them fruiting for two years. I spayed last year only once or twice and didn’t use a sticker. Damage was about 80%. I don’t know what it would have been if I didn’t spray.
Imidan is probably the most forgiving material for less than perfect timing because of its kickback. The label calls for very high rates so it also takes a lot of rain to make it ineffective.
Pyrethroids have no kickback at all, so if PC finds a window its likely to open it.
Assail, the nicinoid is supposed to have kickback and I believe it because I have a lot of oozing spots on plums where it was in the mix this season with no tunneling on the interior.
Exactly! AND…exactly my point. Same goes for product sharing when done carefully and when MSDS and product application data is included with the broken product…and that’s IF, it’s even a violation to begin with. I’m not a lawyer, but neither are you or the horticulturalists at PSU.
Proof of this? Careful in your selection of proof, because I can post the same of Avaunt or Gamma C for that matter…it will go nowhere. That proof doesn’t exist.
I know, I know, it must be based on something…right? I agree, but where is it?
Ok…I took you for your word…you said you never sprayed it. You said that.
9/29/2000 it was indeed listed as a RRP/OP alternative, 3/29/2015 it was reevaluated and I do not see it appearing as a RRP. Furthermore, I see it listed as NOT a RRP. Perhaps it is, but in the end, what does that really tell us?
Look, I’m not arguing the potential issues with OP use, or the obvious sensibility of using a safer product (if that product is effective), but what I’m trying to emphasize is that the alternatives are not rainbows and unicorns and this is absolutely proveable by even myself. One has to consider very, very many things. Most principally imo is whether the product offers good results. I have little doubt that that a Avaunt or even a commercial grade Gamma C product will achieve good results. That however is not the focus. Also, Triazicide listed content and application quantities were looked at by Olpea and found to be in line with commercial application recommendations. Even with that in mind, commercial application numbers which have been approved by the EPA mean nothing when they are not commercially sprayed. Your position is one of attempting to burn the candle from both ends.
Triazicide doesn’t work Alan…it doesn’t…and won’t. I’ve done side by side comparisons here and even 2 tests using confined bugs. Imidan dominates. That’s what I know.
Appleseed, you’ve made your point that you don’t like triazicide and I realize you are convinced that it doesn’t work at all.
Now give it a rest.
Chris, the respirator wasn’t required in the past I’m quite certain I have the links for that. The respirator requirement for Imidan is paramount due to it being a WP formulation and the mixing (even though a WS bag in commercial apps does not expose a worker to that dust, it potentially could… It DOES however in BYO apps., which is why I’ve said I use a 3M DP mask. I’ve since disposed with this, but it’s at my own risk.
As for your posted PPE requirements for specific tasks…read further. We’re not dipping pine seedlings.
Actually, the post made that point, and I agreed with it. But I understand, you’re tired and need a rest. OK
[quote=“Appleseed70, post:105, topic:5951”]
Proof of this? Careful in your selection of proof, because I can post the same of Avaunt or Gamma C for that matter…it will go nowhere. That proof doesn’t exist. I know, I know, it must be based on something…right? I agree, but where is it?
The signal word on the label is a good indicator of the toxicity of the material. Imidan has a “warning” label but Avaunt has a “caution” signal word. That fact would make be believe that Imidan is more dangerous than Avaunt.
Regarding the effectiveness - Penn State rates both materials as very effective against PC. The Apple Production Guide for the South East rates Avaunt slightly more effective against PC than Imidan. Imidan has been used extensively in major apple growing regions for a long time. As a result of this high use (or perhaps over use) in certain regions, PC has developed some degree of resistance to Imidan in some places.
Blue…your cut and paste of my post isn’t appropriate without the context of the reply. It was for mammalian toxicity. As far as it’s danger, if you read the subsequent posts, and the posts before that, you’ll clearly see I have EVERY reason to believe Imidan has safety issues. I have said that over, and over and over again. I believe Avaunt does as well. Are you disagreeing with those statements?
I have several links to production guides that rate Imidan tops for PC control. I’m not in the southeast though, and the topic is Triazicide, not Avaunt… I didn’t refute Avaunt’s reported efficacy, in fact, I responded that I’d “love to try some”. It seems that points are being argued which I’ve not advanced.
Does the proof I mentioned regarding mammalian toxicity reside in those signal words? You would know, because you are up on this stuff. But you don’t spray Imidan or Triazicide…right?
Apple - Not trying to start a fight, just trying to add another perspective. Never used Triazicide in the orchard, only in the kitchen garden where it worked well. I like the ease of mixing a few gallons of spray with Triazicide for the garden.
I have a restricted use pesticide license, so I have access to just about everything. Some things I refuse to use (like paraquat) and I try to avoid more toxic materials when something less toxic works.
Actually, I have used a lot of Imidan in the commercial u-pick orchard on both apples and peaches, but none this year. When I used it at the full rate, it worked well and it was pretty easy on mite predators. However, at less than 3#/acre, I was not happy with the results. In an attempt to substitute something less toxic, I tried Actara for PC on apples for the first time this year at petal fall. I was not happy with the Actara results either, but I have a very long bloom period which delayed the PF spray. I believe the PC went to work before I could get the spray on. Next year I’m going to spray 1/2 of the field with one material and the other half with something else and monitor the results. Most likely spray everything at pre-pink with Actara to take care of RAA and then test Imidan on half and Avaunt on the other half at petal fall.
I’m not expert on mammalian toxicity, but I’m pretty sure that Avaunt is much less toxic than Imidan. Imidan has a 14 day re-entry period for the general public in a U-pick operation. I’m not aware of any other material with this same type of restriction.
As I’ve noted before, Imidan may be uniquely capable of providing adequate kickback to bail out the tardy sprayer. The neonicotinoid Assail is said to possess some of this and I put it in my mix for this reason. I notice this year some oozing from a lot of the plums at various sites, which usually indicates PC infection. When these plums are cut open there often is no tunneling, or just a short one that leaves the seed intact and healthy. I think either these plums are getting hit by tarnished plant bug for the first time, or that Assail did it’s job and killed tiny PC larva within the fruit. It will be interesting to see if this slightly damaged fruit ripens normally- usually any oozing or premature coloring spells doom.
Timing becomes more critical if your insecticide (or fungicide) lacks kick-back. I manage too many orchards and try to accomplish protection with too few sprays to execute perfect timing for all species in a mixed orchard, but protection is pretty much always more than adequate- even on sites where only a pyrethroid is used for insecticide.
When a pesticide contains on its label the statement “not for residential use” it puts a commercial applicator in a bind. Avaunt provides a simpler escape hatch because stating a product is for agricultural use only doesn’t include a clear definition of how much product has to be sold. It actually seems it must mean a user has to have only the intent to sell. Farmers don’t always sell the produce they intend to and when prices are too low commercial fruit growers sometimes leave crops on their trees. The point is that it seems to be an unenforceable restriction for the hobbyist grower although I am not suggesting this as being sound legal advice. I am no lawyer.
Same here! Well most, one had PC.I’m going to evaluate damage once harvest is over, if bad, I’m going with the big guns next year, if not, probably will stick to what I use.