I have, and I’ve told you that Alan…and I didn’t do it accidentally…I did it on absolute purpose. It won’t provide acceptable results if sprayed at 50%…I’m NOT kidding you. If you have never sprayed it (as you say), WHY oh WHY are you so confident of it’s performance? It’s no good AT ALL, not sorta good, not good sometimes, under certain conditions…it’s NO good EVER! I tell you right now, I’m not even sure there is even Gamma Cyhalothrin in it…who is to say otherwise?
Oh, and FWIW, it doesn’t amaze me at all that they would sell an ineffective product. Effective products aren’t readily available and the profit margin skews exactly 100% in their favor. Surely you cannot be surprised by that?
You say it means “within 100 ft of a home”, could you point me to where that is spelled out? I just spent an hour searching this and I came up empty. If you read Avaunt’s label, it’s pretty clear that the 14 pages of legalese has all the bases covered. Not saying anything of residential use is completely meaningless.
It’s also not classified as a reduced risk pesticide, which would be the only attractive point for me…at least for now.
Also, Dupont is VERY, VERY, unmistakably clear that you are on your own when you choose to use their product…they most definitely ARE NOT “covering your back”. They are bound to refunding your purchase price (if unopened) and that is absolutely it. Just read it.
Yes it took me hours to find it myself, which I won’t do again but it is somewhere in the federal regulations of the EPA. All legal definitions have to be specifically defined somewhere or someone has written an unenforceable law.
As this thread shows, your experience with Triazicide is not universal, Some have found it useful so why not give it a rest. We all agree that Imidan is the most effective insecticide against PC, but many get adequate protection without it. I sure don’t miss using it, and I could use a whole bag in a day.
But it is overwhelmingly more common, and those that have reported satisfactory results don’t have a benchmark by which to measure it by. Compared side by side there is no comparison. Those folks are like me…emptying plastic bottle after plastic bottle and thinking they are doing something.
They are doing something…wasting their time and money.
Actually, I read it differently. If you live where PC was damaging your fruit before and the situation changed after the use of Triazicide, it is most likely working. PC is pretty consistent where it is a problem at all. From the comments I’ve seen here and on GW in the past, including respected members like Don Yellman, the consensus is more positive than negative on its efficacy.
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Sorry, but it’s not, and not just here but at other sites as well. The deer food plot guys figured it out well before we did. Frankly, I find that a bit embarrassing.
I’m not sure what exactly you’ve chosen to read here, but the reports here on the whole are pretty dismal at best. It’s a very poor product.
BTW…Don Yellman was very much a proponent of the use of Imidan. He used Imidan 50WP. Not sure where you’re getting this from. It was, in fact, his advice, (as well as your’s I might add) that led me to it.
You yourself made many glowing reports on Imidan, but it seems you’ve switched teams? Is Avaunt working so much better? It isn’t for at least some reports I’ve read. Curious I am.
I remember you personally stating (and I quote) “I love the smell of Imidan in the morning…smells like victory”. Do you remember saying that? What happened that’s now so bad you choose not to share with us?
http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1473102/a-good-substitute-for-imidan
Appleseed, I have written recently here that I consider Imidan to be a very effective insecticide whose risks are over rated, although I do worry about child exposure to the product. I just don’t think it is the best first option for a home owner- and that’s only an opinion based on using Imidan, and not triazicide- so take it as you will. I just assume that triazicide at adequate rates likely works as well as the pyrethroid I use.
The complaint of the effectiveness of Triazicide on this thread comes from Cityman who used it only at label strength. The only two respondents here got reasonably good control although one complained about plum damage, without providing a ball park of extent. I always have some difficulty protecting plums at certain sites and did when I used Imidan- but losses from a fully cropping tree are never beyond about 30%.
The one thing people need to know is that the pyrethroids lose efficacy in high heat and also too long of shelf life. In high heat situations a switch to carbaryl for later sprays might be a more practical solution than dealing with Imidan, but it is entirely a judgement call.
I’m glad you’ve found success with Imidan but your boosterism of the product may not serve everyone well. I suppose you could say the same for my rejection of it.
As of July, three sprayings of fresh Tiazicide double strength with sticker resulted in approximately 40% PC damage. There was rain a day or two after two of the sprays. Perhaps the PC attack was light. I’ll repeat the same thing next year and report.
I also have concerns with exposure to children, or even adolescents. This is easily the biggest sticking point for me. I must say though, that I’m not so sure I would feel any less concern with a product like Avaunt, or even Triazicide for that matter. Avaunt’s PPE requirement is certainly greater (by it’s own label), as is it’s own risk assessment, but that’s probably just a legal protection issue that a newer product might face that an older one does not. Imidan (as I’m sure you will agree) has received far greater scrutiny and testing than has it’s more recent competitors. Partly this is due simply to it’s overwhelming widespread use in the past as well as now. It’s a fair point, and no doubt worth mentioning. If you read my text you will see I’ve never avoided this and have been up front on that issue throughout. Just a few months ago a member posted human toxicity results of different sprays and Phosmet graded fairly well. Granted though, the ADHD link was not addressed in that report. Seems to me Avaunt was actually one of the more dodgy ones, which unfortunately is how these things often go. The better more effective products come with more baggage. Just because something is a pyrethroid doesn’t mean it’s all the same, just as all latex paints aren’t the same, and with them, if you cheat too much it’s plainly visible. Not so with insecticides. Again, Avaunt IS NOT a reduced risk pesticide. Triazicide really isn’t even an insecticide, but rather a slick marketing gimmick product aimed at Harry homeowner.
Read again. The complaints are from many both here and elsewhere. Cityman only applied at label rate? Ok, if you say so. To apply above label rate also violates the rules and in a more direct and enforceable way that does some proposed 100’ self ascribed limit on Phosmet. I applied at WAY above the label rate…and was thoroughly dissapointed. I think I have the knowledge to be able to make fair assessments and gave it way more chances than it deserved. Label is the law…right?
Actually I think I might agree here. Imidan may very well be unrivaled for it’s PC control given it’s other attributes (I think we agree on this). So why not (if one is concerned) hedge your bets and go with Imidan for 2 sprays where it’s strength really shines and perhaps resort to something weaker for later sprays?" The real issue with this plan is Imidan is sold in too large a quantity for the typical BYO, and it’s general efficacy well exceeds that of available OTC stuff for later pests as well, even when sprayed at almost any concentration.
THIS is where I see the real value, both environmentally and economically of a shared system of purchase. There simply is NO benefit in any way, to any person, or from an environmental perspective to spraying vast quantities of overmixed OTC products. Particularly when the goal objective is not achieved.
I’m also glad I’ve found success, and I partly have you to thank for that. Thank you Alan.
I’m glad Cityman and others have as well.
My “boosterism” as you say, is only a result of your boosterism of a product in which you, by your own admission, have never once sprayed.
Imidan will give a grower beautiful fruit. I’ve shown the results it provides. It makes the BYO lazy, because perfect fruit comes with less spray, less work, and less cost.
,[quote=“danzeb, post:88, topic:5951”]
As of July, three sprayings of fresh Triazicide double strength with sticker resulted in approximately 40% PC damage.
[/quote]
As of July? If you are doing 3 sprays 2 weeks apart from petal fall, you would be done by mid-June at the latest, in Long Island. If you waited this year for first spray, PC did its damage very early this season.
Appleseed, you exaggerate to make a point. I actually have used triazicide in my own garden and it worked very well at quickly destroying some beetles that were destroying my lilies. The only reason I bought the stuff was to try it out so I could find out for myself how well it worked. I used it on a couple other things that season and it worked where applied. To say it isn’t an insecticide does no service to other growers here.
Also, a quick search indicates that Avaunt is indeed classified as a reduced risk pesticide and the EPA is on the verge of eliminating Imidan because of safety and environmental concerns. Avaunt has very low mammalian toxicity while Imidan is very poisonous to us and our nervous system. Once again, I don’t think this makes it terribly dangerous for someone that follows instructions and reduces exposure as much as reasonably possible- and locks it up in child and dog-proof storage.
Am I missing something? Google Avaunt and you will see it is part of almost every “reduced risk” commercial apple production program provided by the universities in this country. Here is a quote from a Rutger’s publication on cranberry production pest control.
Avaunt (Indoxacarb)
. Avaunt belongs to a new class of insecticides
called the oxidiazines. This insecticide has a novel mode of action: it
works by inhibiting sodium ion entry into the nerve cells that results in
paralysis and death of the targeted pest. Avaunt has broad-spectrum
activity and is designated by the EPA as a “reduced-risk” pesticide.
As far as the label being the law, you are correct- except with the suggestion that there is any practical risk in not following the directions on a label that is directing the consumer to use a lower concentration of the pesticide than the EPA actually approves. Who exactly is going to enforce the label law and how?
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My knowledge of these products is limited but it seems like one gauge of risk to humans is the amount of protective clothing that is required. Here is what Imidan requires:
Motorized ground equipment applicators not in an enclosed cab, applicators dipping pine seedlings, and handlers engaged in cleaning up
a spill or leak, or cleaning or repairing contaminated equipment, must wear:
Coveralls over long-sleeve shirt and long pants,
Chemical-resistant gloves,
Chemical-resistant footwear plus socks,
Chemical-resistant headgear for overhead exposure,
Chemical-resistant apron, if exposed to the concentrate or applying as a pine seedling dip, and
A respirator with an organic-vapor cartridge with a prefilter approved for pesticides (MSHA/NIOSH approval number prefix TC-23C), or a canister
approved for pesticides (MSHA/NIOSH approval number prefix TC-14G), or a NIOSH-approved respirator with an organic vapor (OV) cartridge or
canister with any N, R or P or He prefilter.
Here is what Avaunt requires:
Applicators and other handlers must wear:
Long-sleeved shirt and long pants.
Chemical Resistant Gloves Category A (such as butylrubber, natural rubber, neoprene rubber or nitrilerubber), all >14 mils.
Shoes plus socks.
The way I see it, you do not need a respirator when spraying Avaunt which makes it makes it much more appealing to use plus to me would imply that that it a potentially less harmful product to humans. I had very good results this year using Avaunt.
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Of course it is less dangerous to human’s and all mammals when it is clearly understood that it has low mammalian toxicity when Imidan has high. But you make a good point as related evidence.
I’m glad you had good success with Avaunt- I usually do as well, although it doesn’t seem to be quite as effective as Imidan against PC. It has won Appleseed’s over-the-top loyalty for a reason.
I’m all for a good, robust discussion and certainly have no objects to you all talking about various aspects of each product, including safety. But I just wanted to reiterate some of the disclaimers I made in the original post, which were all made in support of my main point: That I was only making statements about the EFFECTIVENESS of each product. Some people worry a lot about possible health impact, others don’t worry much about it. I don’t think anyone can say the other person is wrong for worrying or not worrying about their own health. But for keeping worms out of fruit, I’ve found Imidan vastly superior. Just wanted to reiterate that. But you are, of course, welcome to continue looking at other characterists of each product.
We are also trying to figure out why you had such poor results with triazicide. The efficacy of Imidan is certainly not being questioned but it is important to find out if Triazicide can be used with similar efficacy, for a variety of reasons.
Imidan is not packaged for using the way you are using it so it would be very useful to figure out if triazicide can be made to work more effectively. When I used Imidan, I could put a whole bag into water and use it up- spooning it out by the TBS is not my idea of fun.
So your statement that one worked for you and the other didn’t when similar compounds to the active in Triazicide are adequately effective really leaves me with a strong motivation to strategize making Triazicide work.
I understand and appreciate that. I obviously can’t explain the big difference but clearly it exists for me and many others. As far as it not being designed for use like I’m using it, its hard for me to see that there is much danger from me dipping my measuring spoon into a bag and then dumping into my sprayer VS you dropping a whole bag in your sprayer, but thats not for me to decide. The risks are acceptable to me, and if others aren’t comfortable then they shouldn’t use it.
One other factor I should mention. I did not use a sticker with triazicide, but I have been using one (nu-film type) with Imidan. Since I was applying Triazicide every 10 days or so and often without rain in between, its hard for me to think the sticker is the difference. But in the interest of science it should be mentioned in a comparison like we are doing.
I never did the math on the label of Triazicide and compared it to what concentration is suggested in the commercial formula of the active ingredient. I should get around to that, but I’m hoping someone else will do it for me (Olpea?)
I agree with you that there is not that much difficulty, but I hated dealing with the dust when I used to cut open the bags to make smaller quantities. I am sure that my aversion to that dust exceeds the actual danger. Folks who work in factories that manufacture the stuff don’t have bad health profiles, if I’m not mistaken.
I hate the dust too! Captan is the worst. Rally and Topsin are bad also. No matter how careful you are, a small amount of dust gets in the air. I use a full face mask with gloves in an outdoor area with no breeze when I cut the bags or poor the powder into the mixing bucket
The granular Cap isn’t so bad and also doesn’t leave as much white residue on fruit- which I hope to be a good thing. My customers prefer not to see it.
That some great information! I hate the dust when mixing and the residue left behind on the fruit from the 50% WP.
After I use whats on hand I going to move to the 80% WDG version. I’m guessing the PHI is the same as the 50% stuff.
Yeah, when the powder was all I knew in dry form I used Captec, which is, of course, the most dust free Cap- but you need to use it up in a season and it comes in big jugs.