Triazicide vs imidan: My personal experience

General Fruit Growing
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I’m not saying no company will ship, my supplier won’t deliver Imidan through UPS because of its flammability. I assume it is a legal issue but am not certain about that.

BMSB is not my primary bug issue- YET. Tarnished plant bug never responded much to Imidan which always caused cat facing on some sites on peaches here, sometimes destroying fruit. Green stinkbug has become more prevalent in the last 5 years or so. Even where BMSB has been a factor, the pyrethroid I use has worked adequately well. Imidan didn’t do the job on the greens ore TPB, but I’ve never tried it for BMSB. However, commercial growers are not getting much efficacy out of it for that pest.

I don’t use Triazicide, but people here have used it in a wide swath or our country successfully. It makes sense to try it first before dealing with a bag of Imidan. It also makes sense to realize that Imidan may not solve all your insect issues.

Does the Imidan label still read "not for residential use? That sentence made it untenable for me at many sites I work.

If I was a serious hobbyist I’d use Avaunt and plan to sell a little fruit to be legal. It is so much easier to deal with, is relatively kind to beneficials (and bugs, unfortunately, just like Imidan) and won’t alarm the neighbors with its chemical odor. Pyrethroids at adequate concentration just kill everything and can cause mite outbreaks. I’ve even seen major and debilitating whitefly outbreaks on apples where they’ve been used. Never saw that before.

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I did, btw, find the Acetamiprid product available from Ortho

Think I’ll pick up a new bottle in case they decide to disappear it

For those of us working on a scale that doesn’t make Imidan practical, it’s a useful alternative when the pressure gets too high

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Imidan is for sale on Amazon in 1 pound bags. I thought the price was pretty high, but it beats having to buy 5 one pound bags in a sealed package. Also saw a few other farm grade chemicals for sale in smaller packages like Rally

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But commercial growers are getting zero protection from Triazicide…because they don’t bother spraying it. The bugs you mention, while no doubt troublesome, really aren’t at all major players in any fruit realm, and definitely not in pommes. I have seen them mentioned though, and I think I remember Olpea has an issue with the green SB.They are of such little significance though, that they are often omitted in efficacy performance evaluations. I personally, have never seen either here at my place…ever. For that reason, I place lesser emphasis on that activity as say, PC which is a very major player here (and most other places as well) and a real threat.

I respectfully disagree. It’s over-priced, watered down garbage that is ironically a environmental disaster.

I agree. But folks reading this have to be aware that it is very unlikely it will deliver satisfactory results. If one must begin mixing at way over the max ap rate then you are illegal.

No insecticide can solve all your issues. Let me say that again NO insecticide can solve all your issues. I know you know that Alan…that repeat is for the benefit of those like myself that thought there was a “all-in-one” spray available…there isn’t. I’m of the opinion that Phosmet is maybe the closest thing there might be to that…all things considered.

Not to my knowledge, but I’d have to review the label to be sure. If it doesn’t say that, it should. It should also (imo) at least mention the possible link to ADHD, which I’m 100% certain it does not.
Avaunt is not for residential use either…I cannot attest to it’s label since I cannot afford any, or let’s say " I cannot justify it’s higher cost given it’s significant disadvantages". If I were a commercial sprayer, my considerations would be vastly different.

I understand what you are saying here and I agree with your position, but at the end of the day, is the lack of odor a good thing in your mind? They purposely odorize natural gas for a reason…it’s a safety measure.

I don’t wish in any way to be disagreeable with you or anyone else who thinks differently. I’m just not seeing anything that would compel someone to go in any other direction. I really wish there was something better and safer…but in all I’ve read here and in all my research, I’ve not found anything even close. Let’s also just not automatically assume Phosmet is any more dangerous that any other effective spray. The science just isn’t there to support that notion. When I say “let’s”, I’m including myself.
If I were asked to recommend a OTC spray for residential areas (and we have to be careful in our designation of residential) I’d recommend Malathion because although weak, it does work…Triazicide does not at all in most cases. Carbaryl for the JB’s .
I’d love to try some Avaunt for comparison…I really would.

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That’s a bit more than “pretty high” blueberry…KPS will ship you 5 lbs. for almost the same price. Less with a promo code.

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I don’t believe the Avaunt label says not for residential use- that means within 100 ft of a home. Avaunt says for “agricultural use only”. That means you need to sell some fruit or intend to eventually, not that you can’t have product right next to your home that you spray with Avaunt. I’ve always assumed that there is a further bureaucratic hurdle of high expense to get approval for selling pesticides to the home owner for general gardening which the Avaunt patent holder or manufacturer doesn’t consider worth the investment. “Not for residential use” strikes me as a term probably used for protection against litigation, which is the red flag that concerns me.

If your neighbor smells Imidan you are spraying, gets an asthma attack and sues you, I’m not sure the manufacturer will have your back covered. This is not entirely hypothetical because I’ve had people become very angry with me when they were within smell range of an Imidan application.

Most experts do believe these more recent insecticides are safer than the old OP’s- both to the environment and to the user. I am not a chemist but my laymen’s opinion is that the danger of OP’s has been somewhat exaggerated, at least in regards to the applicator.

If Triazicide has failed the poster so consistently (I just carefully read the post) I can understand using Imidan, but I still recommend purchasing some Avaunt instead and plan to sell some fruit from the trees just as soon as they get big enough- even if that takes 20 years.

I expect Imidan will be unavailable shortly in any case. Any home owner who buys it will be committed to keep using it for a couple of decades.

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quote=“Appleseed70, post:65, topic:5951”]
That’s a bit more than “pretty high” blueberry…KPS will ship you 5 lbs. for almost the same price
[/quote]

I’m not confident that paying a little more for 5 pounds of something that will last a back yard grower 10 years or longer is a better value than just buying one pound at a higher price per pound. 5 pounds makes sense if you plan to share, but i’m not sure that the shelf life is indefinite. I could spray 800 trees 2 times with 5 pounds of Imidan. At my rates, a backyard grower could spray 20 trees four times a year for 20 years!

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You don’t recomend carbaryl for general residential use? I’ve been using it this year and am seeing satisfactory control against the PCs, my primary fruit pest

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Carbaryl is a good general purpose insecticide. Its almost as effective as Imidan on most insects, but it has several short comings.

It thins fruit on apple trees for several weeks after petal fall and is used by commercial growers for that purpose. The amount of thinning is very hard to control and can easily eliminate too much fruit.

It also kills a lot of predator insects especially mite predators which often results in a mite flair. Permethrin based products do the same thing. Imidan on he other hand is very hard on the bad bugs, but not too hard on the good bugs which makes it popular with commercial growers.

Here is a comparison of how effective various insecticides are on various bugs:
http://extension.psu.edu/plants/tree-fruit/insects-mites/insecticides-and-miticides/apples-insecticide-and-miticide-efficacy

Also a comparison how hard the same insecticides are on the good bugs:
http://extension.psu.edu/plants/tree-fruit/insects-mites/natural-enemies-and-controls/toxicity-of-pesticides-to-mite-and-aphid-predators

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Interesting data

Switching to carbaryl was the reason I was concerned it might thin pears as well as apples

As a bagger, I don’t generally use an insecticide on my apples - this year, failing most apples, I bagged the pears

But I’m growing on a very very small scale here, in a residential area, and I don’t think imidan would be practical - thus looking for small-scale alternatives

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Are there any heat restrictions on spraying carbaryl? Can it be sprayed with temps in high 80’s and direct sunlight?

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Here are the dirty culprits

IMG_20160615_155147.jpg1008×756 277 KB

It’s hot so I was afraid to spray Sevin so I flicked them into soapy water.

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I don’t know this for sure, but experience suggests to me that Imidan, Avaunt or a good pyrethroid last a few days longer than Carbaryl. Like pyrethroids, carbaryl kills too widely and by killing beneficials encourages mite outbreaks. However, it’s pretty safe for humans and does kill PC. The thinning affect would be positive on a normal year.

Has anyone, say accidentally, mixed a batch of Triazicide that was much stronger than the label calls for and found it worked for PC. It amazes me that they would call for too weak a dose to be effective. Maybe someone can crunch the numbers on the percentage of active ingredient a home owner is supposed to use compared to a commercial applicator using a similar chemical. Pyrethroids I use are lethal to PC, and for a good long time.

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I use sticker- primarily nufilm. I’m looking for a new insecticide to use with triazicide. currently thinking of doubling the amount of triazicide and adding permethrin. I know permethrin is potent because I’ve sent it drop kutzu stink bugs after a direct spray.

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The thing is, if I’m not mistaken, both are pyrethroids and work in essentially the same mode, so adding a different class of product would make more sense

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Yup…its a synthetic pyrethroid. I would imagine they do roughly the same thing in the insect, maybe differences would be how long its effective? Not sure.

I found late PC hits on my plums so i should maybe have spaced out my sprays a little more. These plums are hit very hard every year. Seems like every year there is some late PC damage. Most of my stuff looks fine, just that one tree.

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I bought a bag of Imidan this winter from my local farm supply store. I feel it is a great value at about $70 for a 5 pound bag. Really, I don’t feel this is 20 years worth as some might say. If you think about it, I mix it at a rate of 1 Tbs per gallon. My 20 tree orchard takes 10 gallons of spray. That is 10Tbs of Imidan per spray and I spray 5 times per year for a total of 50Tbs. I used a baking calculator to determine that there is 58Tbs per pound of flour. I figured Imidan has about the same density as flour. This means I bought about 5 years worth for $70. I think this is pretty good. I bet I was spending $70 per year on Triazicide. Also, Imidan is much more shelf stable than Traizicide especially in my cold pole barn in the winter.

Anyone who has as many trees as I do or more should consider the cost effectiveness of Imidan (check my math).

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If you don’t mind dealing with the powder I think it is a fine fruit tree insecticide. You may need to supplement it with something else if stink bugs show. Supposedly malathion works well for BMSB.

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I didn’t exactly say that, but no, I would not recommend it for general use. It’s a great and very useful product, but simply does not provide the necessary punch for PC…that is my biggest issue and it is generally the largest area of concern for most pomme growers.
I would however recommend it for Japanese beetle onslaughts, but with better spray material it’s benefits shrink to a point where it may not be useful enough to keep around. I personally do maintain a supply of it.

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Ribs…your numbers are good and accurate and are actually conservative to very conservative. You are absolutely correct, you cannot provide full cover sprays while even remotely following most spray guides for 20 years. I mix 1.5 Tbsp. per gallon and provide 6-12 sprays per year (weather permitting). This year might be an all time low…maybe 5, if that.
I’ll never see 6 years, much less 20.
The cost effectiveness cannot imo be argued for the home grower imo. Not a soul has questioned that position so far.

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