When to pick Kassandra hybrid persimmon?

[TNHunter]

I only have experience with wild american so far…

My sisters large mature trees in full sun location… and the fruit from them seem to loose astringency faster than the fruit from the other wild trees that i harvest from. The fruit from her trees is quite a bit larger… and the flavor is quite rich… which i can only describe as caramel like richness.

My son in law loves persimmons and we eat some together almost every evening. He was blown away by the taste of a nicely ripened chicago hardy fig… but he says my sisters persimmons are better then figs. I have to agree although it is a close match.

All of the other trees that i harvest from are smaller… younger trees… and in locations where they get much less direct sun.

The fruit on them is smaller, clear orange… since they get leas sun the fruit skin remains clear orange … and the pulp inside is clear orange… they have a wonderful persimmon flavor but lack that extra richness that my sisters persimmons have.

I suppose it could be sunshine on the fruit while ripening that gives them that extra richness ? Or perhaps it is just the larger more mature trees ?
The fruit from her trees looses astringency quickly… where the fruit from these smaller trees getting less sun keeps astringency longer.

The fruit from these smaller trees getting less sun… every once in a while i will pick one out and eat it… and be enjoying the flavor with no notice of astringency at all initially… but then wow it comes on near the end and ends up being quite astringent. It is almost like a delayed reaction.

[jrd51]

My experiment may be academic. All of the 20 or so fruits that I picked a week ago ripened in a bag at room temperature after about a week. My wife and I ate a dozen or so this morning. They were great - sweet, tasty, non-astringent. No need for CO2 or alcohol or anything other than time.

I’m no foodie, so my descriptions of flavor are lame. I’m not gonna reference honey and caramel. More simply, I’d describe the flavor as roughly equivalent to my Ichi Ki Kei Jiro at its best. The texture is like a ripe tomato. Given the size, the fruit can be eaten like a very large cherry tomato without the potential for explosion and without the seeds. There is no astringency (or, at worst, only the faintest hint).

p.s. Edit 10/30: After 3 days, I sampled one of the persimmons from the container with the ethanol. Note that all of the fruits within are still hard and still orange (not red-orange). The fruit I tasted was still astringent. Therefore, I have no evidence as yet that the ethanol is having an impact.

p.p.s. Edit 11/01: Aftre 5 days, still astringent despite ethanol. . . .

[zendog]

Is the skin something you eat as well, or do you peel them or otherwise avoid the skin?

[jrd51]

I’ve been eating the skin

[jrd51]

I have good news and bad news. It’s been 8 days since I started my experiment. As a reminder, I put ~20 Kassandra fruits (~40 total) either in a plastic bin with ethanol or in an identical bin with water. And now there’s a result.

The good news: The persimmons exposed to the ethanol are non-astringent. They are edible, and the consistency of the flesh its firmer than in naturally ripe fruit. It has softened somewhat, perhaps because the fruit are slowly ripening; but it is still relatively firm.

Meanwhile, the persimmons exposed to the water remain astringent.

The bad news: None of the persimmons seems really ripe. The color is still the basic orange, not the bright red-orange that I observed on ripe Kassandra fruit. And the skin is still somewhat tough. And IMO, the taste is different and possibly inferior to the taste of the ripe fruit I tasted a week or so ago. [I really need to perform a side-by-side taste test.]

I’m reminded that (1) ripening and (2) de-astringency may be two separate (though intertwined) processes. A week or so ago, I achieved ripening using ethylene, produced by an apple. And the ripe fruit was non-astringent. Now, I’ve achieved non-astringency using ethanol, produced by a vodka bottle. But the results are different. One process produces a non-astringent ripe fruit, whereas the other process produces a non-astringent unripe fruit.

Bottom line: While I managed to remove astringency from Kassandra using ethanol, I don’t think the result is better than the Kassandra ripened with an assist from an ethylene source such as an apple or banana. My wife, who strongly prefers a firmer consistency, seems to disagree.

Both processes – ethylene and alcohol – took about a week. Both produced non-astringent fruit. But the ethylene-treated fruit looked, felt, and tasted ripe. For better or worse, the ethanol-treated fruit looked, felt, and perhaps also tasted unripe.

p.s. I think I taste some alcohol in the treated figs, which is distracting.

[mamuang]

Thanks for the report. One year I tried to get rid of Rojo Brillante with vodka. After two weeks it did not work.

This year a generous friend gave me a bunch of hybrids. Last night, I put them with apples in plastic bags. Within one night, all have turned colored.

Giombo with Black Oxford, Kassandra with SunCrisp and Chuchupakka with Hoople’s Antique Gold.

I also have Prok with Rubaiyat and 100-46 with Calville Blanc.

[TNHunter]

I may have to try adding a apple… to my persimmon ripening chamber…

That was not needed at all with my sisters persimmons… larger more mature tree, larger fruit getting lots of sunshine.

They ripened easily just sitting on the counter in a bowl together.

But now these that i harvested here on my place about a week ago…

Smaller trees, smaller fruit, part sun to little direct sun location. I put all of the soft ones together in a bowl for 5 days. Then processed them to make jam…

The pulp tasted great… but there was still a bit of astringency. I put 1 tsp of baking soda in the pulp while simmering it. Going to try some of the jam for breakfast this morning… to see if that helped with the astringency.

Will report back after breakfast.

Edit add … after breakfast… no astringency at all detected in persimmon jam.

Full details. The raw uncooked persimmon pulp had some astringency… not bad… but definately there.

After cooking to make jam (adding 1 tsp of baking soda) while simmering the jam…
When I jared it up… my son in law tasted it and he said the small amount of astringency was definately still there.

I let that jar of jam cool a hour or two… then put it in the fridge for a couple days… and tried the jam myself this morning… my son tried it too…

We both agreed absolutely no astringency today.

It seems that right after cooking it with the baking soda mixed in… the astringency was still quite noticable… but after being stored in the fridge a couple days… that astringency was completely gone.

[jrd51]

Nice apple collection. Do you make cider?

[zendog]

@jrd51

For better or worse, the ethanol-treated fruit looked, felt, and perhaps also tasted unripe.

Wouldn’t they continue to ripen if you just left them out on the counter to ultimately give you the ripeness you’d prefer while also letting your wife enjoy them earlier? That to me would be a great way to enjoy them. I’m assuming the “unripe” ones were more like a still firm Fuyu type?

I do this now with store bought hachiya and it works well. The firm ones that I’ve taken the astringency out of don’t have the same richness as those that I let ripen further, but it lets me process them all together and then enjoy them over a week or so. The firm ones are nice and the richer, riper ones (which were also edible earlier due to the treatment) are great later on.

I usually buy a box at a time at the Asian market and do this, but I’d imagine having them edible over a long time would be particularly useful to me once I’m faced with a larger crop from my trees.

[mamuang]

No, I don’t. I don’t grow any apples just for cidering, either. I like eating them. Some like Gold Rush lasts until April.

I can’t wait to try Kassandra. So far Chuchupaka was excellent.

[evladi7654]

As I usually go to the South for the winter, I pick my Persimmons before the trip and put them all in the Freezer when I am home. The I take them out when I need it, thaw it and eat one by one during all winter with my family…

[jrd51]

What variety?

[jrd51]

@zendog – That’s a great idea. I’ll try it.

[evladi7654]

all of them. If you freeze a Mamoth, it will stay fresh forever… until you thaw it off

[jrd51]

@evladi7654

all of them.

LOL – Yeah, I just didn’t do the work to figure out what you grow.

[ramv]

Based on my limited experience,
JT02 < Nikita’s gift < Kasandra in order of ripening.

JT02 was already soft on the tree and has been picked. Nikita’s gift is just now turning soft. Kasandra hasn’t even fully turned color on some fruits.
In terms of productivity, Kasandra seems much more productive even on a small tree. Fruit size is much smaller.

[mamuang]

Ramv,
Could you please post pics of JT-02 with size comparison to other persimmons you have or with a ruler? My JT-02 may not be the correct variety as they are quite large.

[ramv]

Here you go

Nikita’s gift

Nishimura Wase

Kasandra

Hachiya

[PharmerDrewee]

Could you take pictures of the leaves? My JT-02 leaves are turning yellow like virginiana whereas my kaki have red fall foliage. The leaf shape looks more like a kaki but they aren’t as glossy.

[mamuang]

Thanks, @ramv
@PharmerDrewee , if the persimmon in the middle was JT-02, the leaves were all gone. They turned yellowish, not red.

I thought my big one on the left was JT-02. I sent a sample of these three to @SMC_zone6 . Steven said the big one on the left was too big to be JT-02.

Steven said my unknown (the one in the middle) looked like JT-02.

The one on the right is Prok.