Anyone know who owns the Claypool orchard now and if it’s legally protected, with a conservation easement or similar?
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Thanks, should have checked the records before answering.
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This may be naieve… After reading the mess associated with the Hershey plantings (the best cultivars that were available destroyed for developments) it seems that every state should have a conservation (“germplast”) dedicated to preserving important heritage timber, orchard, and agricultural species (potentially more where there are multiple zones and less where regional groupings can be made). While the Hershey plantings seem like a great idea the fundamental problem seems that it was placed in the middle of a town (to be honest I have not been there). It seems to be better to have been placed in the middle of no-where like state college, PA.
The important plantings of claypool and lehnman and others should be considered heritage and be saved if at all possible for future generations.
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Exactly! How short-sighted can we be- to let developers ruin irreplaceable breeding orchards? I retired from natural area conservation a long time ago but I don’t recall any NGOs targeting such resources. A lot of responsibility falls to the researcher/landowner, like Lee Calhoun who made sure his heirlooms were secure at Horne Creek Preservation Farm.
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@ansayre
The states have punted this to the USDA. In return, the USDA established seed and clonal germplasm repositories in the late 80’s and early 90’s. Ten years later the U.S. Congress capped the budgets of the repository program, requiring any increase in salaries or number of staff positions to be offset by reductions in maintenance costs – including labor.
The USDA repository for persimmon is NCGR Davis (not UC Davis). Nowadays the majority of maintenance there is funded by the nut growers association and large agricultural producers – who also fund research grants for studies and experimental breeding of the specimens there.
If someone is interested in adding persimmon specimens to the NCGR repository then the place to start is their administrative office on Straloch Road in Davis CA.
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Cliff England posted these but remember disregard kaki and hybrid on this thread. I’m sure the kaki types are great but not exactly what we are after in this thread
" American persimmon (Diospyros virginiana)
Astringent GRAFTED.
Small 12 to 24 inches tall $35.00;
Medium 2 to 3 feet tall $45.00;
Large trees 3 to 4 feet tall $55.00
Wonderful – Late ripening from October to November, the largest fruit to come out of the England’s selection of new cultivars for production and taste. Very large fruit, progeny of Yates/Juhl X F-100 male, tree of medium size with spreading growth habits. It would be good for wildlife food source late in the fall or for a late ripening cultivar to add to any collection for pulp production.
****
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Other cultivars on hand in few numbers Yates/Juhl, I-94 Valene Beauty, Barbara’s Blush (WS8-10)
Persimmon seedlings will be available in March 2021. Price will depend on Size.
90 Chromosome northern persimmon seedlings. Diospyros virginiana. Size 2 to 3 feet tall $8.00 each
Size 3 to 4 feet tall $10.00 each
Size 4 to 5 feet tall and taller $15.00
Asian Persimmon Hybrid (Diospyros Virginiana X Kaki) - These very fine persimmons have been tested and selected for many years. They have been selected over many others for their taste, size and cold hardiness. Zone 5b and higher recommended. S, M, L, XL, XXL sizes available for most varieties. Can ship up to 84 inches tall
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Click here to enlarge pictures.
Kasandra
Persimmon
Kasandra
Persimmon
David’s Kandy - an Original Hybrid Persimmon
Coming in Fall 2018
A Complex Hybrid - Adaptable in Zone 5
Precocious – Gorgeous! A Great Ornamental!David’s Kandy attracts deer BUT is too tall for deer to reach fruit
Click HERE for details about David’s Kandy and pictures of this tree and its fruit.
Click here to enlarge picture.
Mikkusu Kaki
Hybrid Persimmon
Sestronka / NB-21 Hybrid – Developed by Jerry Lehman of Terre Haute IN. Fruit is very large as large as the Pure Kaki but oh so much tastier and larger than average pure Kaki fruit, is reddish with thin skin does not fall from the tree trees are small and not very vigorous, it is a seedling of Nikitskaya Bordovaya crossed back to Virginiana. Breeding and embryo rescue was performed in Japan to bring this cultivar to the world, is not any more cold hardier than pure kaki persimmon.
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Asian Persimmon - Diospyros Kaki - These very fine persimmons have been tested. Selected for many years over many others, primarily for their cold hardiness, they have been tested down to minus -16 for the last 2 years. Their taste, size and productivity are excellent.
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Zone 6 to 9
Home Page Other Fruit Trees Order"
A118 aka elmo has a seperate thread here 'Claypool A-118' ('Elmo') Persimmon (Diospyros virginiana)
Richard,
Yes. Understood. I don’t even get a response from requests to visit the apple germplast in NY.
The point was that all people should have more intimate contact with their local biosphere. I have asked several of my piers recently (60’s age group) and they had never tasted persimmons nor paw paws.
Our future generations will not be impressed (or they will be too dumb to know what has been lost).
Thanks,
Alan
A few more types that are very cold hardy. If your in a colder region you might want to read this thread
Meader Persimmon
The cold hardy Meader Persimmon is the perfect addition to any food plot. Self-pollinating and featuring a December drop, this variety will produce an abundance of nutritious fruits for wildlife. Enjoy the benefits of a long-growing season, large tree size, and heavy yields.
Recommended to plant Morse Female next to this plant.
Zones: 4a-8Soil Types: Wide VarietySoil Conditions: Well Drained, WetGrowth Rates: Very FastMaturity Height: 60 FeetProduction Starts: 3-5 YearsHarvest/Drop Details: August - NovemberCrop Abundance: LargeSpecializations: Self Pollinating, Cold Hardy
September Persimmon
A33 is a heavy producing persimmon tree that drops fruit throughout the entire month of September.
August Persimmon
This Persimmon is a Self-Pollinator and is great for an Early Season persimmon. This would be our choice for a commercial orchard as well so all harvesting can be done in August.
Zones: 4-8Soil Types: Wide VarietySoil Conditions: Well Drained, Little MoistureGrowth Rates: FastMaturity Height: 60’Production Starts: 3-5 YearsHarvest/Drop Details: AugustCrop Abundance: HeavySpecializations: Commercial Persimmon Production, Early Season Hunting
Morse Persimmon
Morse Persimmon Grafted Female needs a male pollinator but is late dropping and our most Cold Hardy persimmon! Rated up to Zone 4a. This tree has survived -35 below zero!
Zones: 4a-8Soil Types: Wide VarietySoil Conditions: Wetter Soils, Well DrainedGrowth Rates: FastMaturity Height: 60’Production Starts: 5-7 YearsHarvest/Drop Details: OctoberCrop Abundance: Very LargeSpecializations: Cold Hardy and Heavy production
Deer Magnet (Nov) Persimmon
Deer Magnet Persimmon is Self Pollinating and one of the best fruit you can plant to bring deer to your food plot. Drops from November - Early December.
Zones: 4-8Soil Types: Wide VarietySoil Conditions: Well Drained, Little MoistureGrowth Rates: Very FastMaturity Height: 60’Production Starts: 3-5 YearsHarvest/Drop Details: NovemberCrop Abundance: Very HeavySpecializations: Self-Pollinating Late Drop
Deer Candy (Oct) Persimmon
This is a game changer when it comes to Whitetail daytime movement during October – Early November. The high sugar content make this a treat to the white tails! Delivery size 18-24 inches.
Zones: 4-8Soil Types: Wide rangeSoil Conditions: Well drainedGrowth Rates: FastMaturity Height:**Production Starts: 3-5 YearsHarvest/Drop Details:** October - NovemberCrop Abundance: HeavySpecializations: Self-pollinator, female"
Alan, sorry … my error. I took “every state” to mean “every state government”.
Note that England misclassifies Picudo / Costata as a hybrid. It is Kaki.
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Meader’s claim to fame was being selected by Dr. Elwyn Meader, as a cold-hardy offspring from the Early Golden/Garretson family. Like many (most?) 90-chromosome persimmons, in some climatic conditions, and in the absence of a male pollenizer, it will set parthenocarpic, seedless fruit. Nurseries jumped on this, touting it as ‘self-fertile’ and seedless.
It is a small fruit, and if grown in the presence of a 90-c male, will be fully (and very) seeded. Unless you need Z4 hardiness, there are much better options…and if you need that cold-hardiness, you’d better hope the seedling understock is Z4 hardy…just sayin’…
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Can you or someone explain the different Chromosome type american persimmons? Since i was a child pollination of these trees seemed complicated. My grandfather when i was 4 or 5 years old broke it down to almost sound easy. He had in mind to use 1 male to every 6 females i think which seemed to work well enough with his wild persimmons. He got very heavy yields. He was not that exact if he had 9 females and 1 male that was fine or 3 females and 1 male at another spot that was ok. Forgetting numbers a minute lets just say he had a strategy. He might turn 5 males into wood but leave the best two males. He was working towards better patches rather than thinking like we do in terms of one tree at a time. If a female was to small it would get culled. Now i have lotus males and virginia named varities and life has became very complicated. The chromosomes are different. How do you know which virginia are the 90-chromosome type? The real reason im asking which you already know is parthenocarpic fruit is seedless. Wild persimmons are loaded with seeds. There is nothing worse than seeing only 10 pounds of fruit on a tree when it should yield 30+ pounds. If we get heavy pollination we get a bigger crop but we get more seeds. We dont want seeds but we still want 40 pound yields. Clearly there are many types of persimmons and they dont all cross pollinate nor does it sound like we want them to.
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Various members of the ebony family (persimmon is a type of ebony) have ploidy levels from diploid (2 sets of chromosomes) up to nonaploid (9 sets of chromosomes). This means we have to grow a male with the same number of chromosomes in order to produce seed. Diospyros virginiana has two ploidy levels, tetraploid (4 sets) and hexaploid (6 sets). It is not possible to visually tell the two types apart though I have read that the tetraploid tends to produce taller more timber like trees. This may be a result of tetraploids growing on average further south in a climate to which it is better adapted. Hexaploid D. virginiana tends to grow further north which may limit vertical growth due to cold and snow.
Parthenocarpy is the tendency to produce fruit without pollination or with minimal pollination. Most persimmons exhibit parthenocarpy to some extent, some so much that they will set a full crop of seedless fruit in the absence of a pollinator. The problem with parthenocarpic fruit is that it is often smaller and less sweet than fruit that has seed.
Persimmon is also known to produce male flowers on otherwise female plants. These male flowers are somewhat special because the pollen will only produce female offspring. The mechanism behind male flowers is the persimmon’s method of sex determination. Basically, one copy of the male chromosome in a hexaploid genome does not automatically mean the tree is male. It can be a female with the ability to set occasional male flowers.
This gets more complicated when making crosses such as D. virginiana X D. kaki. The endosperm in the seed must be properly structured to support the resulting seedling. Endosperm has triple the base chromosome count. For D. virginiana and D. kaki, the endosperm is nonaploid (9 chromosomes). Even then, there are enough differences in the endosperm between the two species that crosses have only been viable via embryo rescue.
D. lotus is a diploid species. In interesting trivia, lotus may be able to cross with the 90 chromosome species to produce tetraploid offspring. How so? In meiosis, lotus would form a pollen cell with 1 set of chromosomes which would pair with 3 sets of chromsomes from a hexaploid species. It would most likely be necessary to use embryo rescue to produce a viable seedling.
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This represents a limited sample size, but Steve Breyer at Tripple Brook Farm in Southhampton, MA has a sizeable collection of ~30+ yr old persimmons, including a bunch of 60 chromosome (tetraploid) ones. He was showing me some of the features that distinguish them visually from the more common 90 chromosome cultivars- at least in his view. Its been a few years, but if I remember correctly, the leaves were smaller, the twigs were slightly downy/tomentose, and the overall form and silhouette of the tree was distinct- more tall and spindly.
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My suspicion is some persimmon are both a perfect male and female. Have seen persimmon by themselves far away from others with heavy crops. Have seen this with many mulberries. I grow over 100 mulberries so the gene pool is larger. Some mulberries are white and some are red but the best are the hybrids of the two types. Persimmons are easy to distinguish males from females once they flower. As a child i didn’t ever notice that. This leads me to believe there is much more we are still not up on. At one location the persimmons get very large. They are well over 70 feet. The persimmons are to high to reach on the majority of the trees. There are likely 60 + trees at that location. They all grow very fast. Tall persimmons is not desirable. They are very fertile persimmons. Once i did pick about 20 pounds of their fruit when i was around 10 years old and took them home put them in the refrigerator. Was eating them all winter. By spring all the remaining seeds in the fruit had sprouted and were growing. Did not realize i was accidently stratifying them. Kids love sweets and those persimmons were my only option to get something similar to candy. Thought very long at the time about the 20 foot full grown persimmons in some locations and the really big ones and those that were somewhere in between. At the time i was frustrated i did not want monster persimmons. I did not know how to graft. The observations of the trees i had to choose from were very inconsistent. Some persimmons were very seedy or very small or both. My grandparents lived in a warmer climate and the persimmons from there would not grow in Kansas. All these years later i find myself more hopeful we will unravel the secrets of the mysterious fruit. If we can learn from those who did the work already and from observations these could be the best fruits of all.
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It doesn’t work that way Clark. If there are 3 or more copies of the male chromosome, the tree is male and produces pollen that may produce male or female offspring. With either 1 or 2 copies, the tree “may” produce some male flowers but because of the number of female chromosomes they will always produce predominantly female offspring. Persimmon - as it exists today - does not have the capacity to be perfect flowered. In another few thousand generations, this will probably change.
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I realize american persimmon are not asian persimmon but i’m hopeful. People sometimes call perfect flowers those that they should be calling “sometimes perfect” When i just searched it i found this which means maybe we are closer than you think. Only time and lots of planting will produce perfect flowers or gmo intervention. https://www.homeorchardeducationcenter.org/
" Asian persimmons are self-fruitful.
Some hold “perfect” flowers (one flower containing both male & female parts) and others hold distinctly separate male and female flowers on the same tree. In either case, they will bear fruit without a second variety to cross pollinate."
It does sound like American persimmons have a ways to go.
" Persimmon Flower
While persimmon trees (Diospyros spp.) are best known for their delectably sweet autumn fruit, they also make very appealing ornamental trees. A big part of their appeal comes from the clusters of delicate, bell-shaped flowers that adorn their glossy-leaves, black-barked branches each spring. The flowers also determine whether a persimmon tree is male or female. We detail their roles in making persimmon fruit.
Male Persimmon Flowers
On malepersimmon trees, the flowers open in inflorescences, or clusters, of two to four. Like rows of tiny pink-tinged bells, they dangle from short, branching stalks. Each one measures about 1/3 inch long and contains up to 16 pollen-producing stamens.
Stamens
The stamens’ job is to produce and release pollen containing the male flowers’ genetic code. Each one has a slender filament topped with a pollen-producing anther.
Female Persimmon Flowers
On female persimmon trees, flowers open as single, pale-yellow blooms. They share the male flowers’ shape and short stalks, but are about twice their size. Each female flower has a pistil with four styles.
Pistils and Styles
A female flower’s pistil contains the ovaries, where its seeds develop. The four styles inside each pistil are stalks with sticky, pollen-trapping receptacles called stigmas.
Pollen trapped on the stigmas works its way down the pistil to the ovaries, where it fertilizes the ovules that produce the seeds. To protect and nourish the developing seeds, the ovaries around them swell into the berries we know as persimmon fruits.
Expert gardener’s tip: Male persimmon flowers can only pollinate female flowers from a tree of the same species. American persimmon trees (Diospyros virginiana, USDA zones 4 through 10) flowers, in other words, can’t pollinate Oriental persimmon trees (Diospyros kaki, USDA zone 7 through 11).
Self-Pollinating Persimmons
Some persimmon cultivars produce ‘perfect’ flowers with large ovaries at their bases and eight or more stamens inside centers. Basically, they’re bi-sexual and in the right conditions — capable of self pollination and producing seedless fruit.
They include the American persimmons:
- ‘Prok’
- ‘Yates’
- ‘Meader’
- ‘Early Golden’
- ‘Prairie Dawn’
and the Oriental persimmons:
- ‘Fuyu’
- ‘Hachiya’
- ‘Maekawa Jiro’
- ‘Ichi Ki Kei Jiro‘
Expert gardener’s tip: Even though these cultivars can self-pollinate, they aren’t dependable. To boost their chances of setting fruit, many commercial growers plant them with a reliable male pollinator.
Pollinators
Bees are persimmon flowers’ primary pollinators, with wind helping out when bees are scarce. Expect the bees to collect nectar and pollen from dawn until dusk during the trees’ two-week spring bloom period."
" # Persimmon Tree Flowers: Beauty, Pollination, and Fruit
The word persimmon usually brings an image of yummy orange fruit to mind. But did you know that not all persimmon trees produce fruit? However, all species of persimmon trees yield beautiful flowers!
Keep reading to learn more about persimmon tree flowers!
Varieties of Persimmon Trees
There are more than 500 varieties of persimmon trees, which are part of the diospyros genus.
Common characteristics of the plant include alternative leaf formation, the absence of terminal buds, and either dioecious or polygamous flowers. The varieties that produce fruit have a leathery texture, with a substantial calyx, and between 5-8 flattened seeds.
The most common varieties of persimmon trees that are grown in the U.S. are the Asian persimmon and the American persimmon. Both of these varieties produce fruit.
Interested in learning how to grow your own persimmon tree? Visit our articles on How to Grow a Persimmon Tree and Persimmon Tree Care.
Seasons of Persimmon Tree Flowers
The flowers of the persimmon tree typically bloom in the late spring and last through early or mid-summer. The exact timeframe of the blooming depends on the variety of persimmon trees and the climate where it’s grown.
Some varieties take as long as five years to yield a bloom. Most persimmon tree flowers will bloom for the first time within two or three years of planting. For all fruit-bearing persimmons, fruit production occurs after the first bloom.
Flowers bloom about two weeks after the leaves first emerge from the buds.
To learn more about the various Persimmon Tree Types, visit our post!
The Appearance of Persimmon Tree Flowers
Persimmon tree flowers are known for their small, bell-shaped structure. The coloring of the flower will depend entirely on the variety of persimmon trees. Colors can range from white, pink, yellow, gray, and green.
Many varieties of the persimmon tree are dioecious, which means they grow either male or female flowers. Typically, the female persimmon flower and calyx will be larger in comparison to the male counterpart.
Male Plant
The male persimmon tree usually produces flowers that grow in clusters of 2 to 4. They are often seen dangling from the branch like a bell.
These persimmon flowers usually measure ⅓ inch. They have a 4-part calyx, corolla, and 24 pollen-producing stamens set into two rows.
On average, the male tree must pollinate the female tree for fruit to grow.
Female Plant
If you’ve ever eaten the fruit of the persimmon, you can thank the female plant! This is because only the female persimmon trees will bear fruit.
These flowers grow in single blooms. They are shaped the same as the male flower, but usually grow larger.
The female flower has a large calyx, a 4-part corolla, eight undeveloped stamens, and a pistil with four styles at its core.
If a female tree is not pollinated, it will usually wither or produce a small fruit that will drop from the tree before it ripens.
Self-Pollinating Plant
Some cultivars are perfect flowers. These have an enlarged ovary at the bottom of the flower and 8 or more stamens in the middle. They are considered bi-sexual, self-pollinate, and yield seedless fruit.
Pollination Process
The main pollinators for persimmon tree flowers are bees! Bees work to collect nectar and pollen, typically beginning two weeks before blooming. These bees carry the pollen from the male plant to the female plant.
They can accomplish this even if the male and female trees are several hundred yards apart. The honeybee has been known to travel 3 miles to pollinate persimmon trees!
The wind is a secondary pollinator for persimmon tree flowers. The spacing of the trees is essential if this is going to be considered a way to pollinate the female trees to produce fruit.
One male tree planted per eight female trees is the recommended guideline for proper pollination.
Persimmon Fruits
Persimmon fruits are typically available in the fall, with a harvest through October or November. If the fruit doesn’t fall, it can remain on the tree well into the wintertime.
Typically, the fruits measure 1-3 inches and are spherical. It is usually yellow, orange, or dark brown.
The fruits are typically astringent, which means they must be ripe before they’re eaten. These fruits are known for their sweetness and are usually soft, sometimes even gelatinous. The non-astringent types can be consumed before ripening when they are still firm, containing the same sweet flavor.
Ways to Enjoy Persimmon Fruits
These fruits can be eaten raw, dried, or cooked. They work well when added to salads or cooked into curries, puddings, cookies, and cakes.
Add a little persimmon flavor to your next meal!
-
Try slicing this fruit and adding it to your oatmeal or cereal.
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Add the fruit to your next smoothie blend for an extra sweetener.
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Serve this yummy [Persimmon Brown Rice Arugula Salad]
Health Benefits of Persimmon Fruits
Nutritionally, persimmons provide high levels of fiber, vitamins A and C, and iron, calcium, and potassium. Consuming persimmons is a great way to include fresh fruits into your diet when it’s past the summer season.
Varieties of Persimmon Fruits
The most common persimmon varieties within the U.S. are the Asian and American fruits. The average grocery store carries the Asian Fuyu persimmon, if they carry them at all.
The main difference between these two species of persimmon is size, flavor, hardiness to cold, and the area to which it’s indigenous. American persimmons are astringent, meaning they must be ripe to be enjoyed. Asian persimmons are often found in both the astringent and non-astringent varieties.
Storing the Fruits
Persimmon fruits are best eaten fresh. They can be stored at room temperature for 3-5 days. The fruits can be stored in the refrigerator for up to 2 months.
Enjoying the Beauty of Persimmon Tree Flowers
Regardless of the variety, persimmon tree flowers are always a sight to behold. Their delicate nature makes driving through an area with persimmon trees a delight throughout the springtime.
To learn more about Persimmon Trees, visit our post!
Posted onLast updated: April 28, 2023"
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When a persimmon flower has both an ovary and pollen stamens, that flower will self-pollinate, but the fruit is seedless. A perfect flowered persimmon would produce both pollen and ovules and would self-pollinate to make seed in the fruit.
When a tree has both male and female flowers, it can self-pollinate and can set seed or can provide pollen for other females in the area. The reason is because the flowers are separate therefore the female flower is fully functional. This type expression is when there are one or two copies of the male version of the sex differentiation gene. Taishu is an example in kaki and Early Golden is an example in virginiana.
Said another way, the bohites stating that some persimmons are perfect flowered are perfectly incorrect.
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It’s amazing how complicated polygamous plants can be, especially in species transitioning from dioecism to monoecism. And yet the ancients knew well enough – selecting cultivars for crop quality, productivity, and sexuality. Mentions of this can be found in the Roman “On Agriculture” texts and Pliny’s “Natural History”. I speculate that documentation also exists from other regions of historical interest (e.g. central Asia, east Asia) but I’ve yet to come across it. However I have read translations of mathematical writings from those regions dating back millennia before the Romans.
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For someone looking to get their first American persimmon, I think 100-46 (Lehman’s delight) is a great choice. It is super precocious and tastes great to me. The precociousness I think will keep it small and you could certainly prune it a bit and still get plenty of fruit. I’ll have to wait until my other Americans produce to compare it, but I was very happy with the 3 fruit I got off the tree last year when it was just 2 feet tall. This year it is about 2.5 feet tall (has a fair amount of lower growth as well) and is holding onto 8 fruit. While I probably should take some or all off, I’m in no rush to make it into a huge tree and I’m greedy.
My Prok on the other hand is a heart breaker when it comes to dropping fruit. It was one of the first persimmons I planted and it dropped every fruit last year, which was well over a 100 pieces, but I blamed that on me tossing some fertilizer under it as I was fertilizing other plants in my rain garden, which is right behind it. But this year, when the tree started the year over 12 feet tall, it set and is dropping hundreds again. It stopped for a while, but is dropping a few dozen a day again and it may just drop them all.
I did cover crop the area under and around the Prok fairly heavily over the winter - peas, rye, daikon, crimson clover, etc. And I’ve also mulched with wood chips in the area and I know my plants are very vigorous due to the covers and mulching. And the third thing is that I’ve top worked some of the tree to a few other varieties, but I did leave most of it in place and the grafting was a few weeks back so I’m not sure what the issue is. Cover crops and mulching? Grafting? Just a mean tree? I did cut open a bunch of the fruit and many have at least a few seeds in them from native male trees in the area, so I guess even pollination didn’t help. Here is the tree, which is massive compared to that fruit-retentive little 100-46.
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