Who's Growing Improved American Persimmons? Suggestions welcome!

General Fruit Growing
#201

Note that England misclassifies Picudo / Costata as a hybrid. It is Kaki.

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#202

Meader’s claim to fame was being selected by Dr. Elwyn Meader, as a cold-hardy offspring from the Early Golden/Garretson family. Like many (most?) 90-chromosome persimmons, in some climatic conditions, and in the absence of a male pollenizer, it will set parthenocarpic, seedless fruit. Nurseries jumped on this, touting it as ‘self-fertile’ and seedless.
It is a small fruit, and if grown in the presence of a 90-c male, will be fully (and very) seeded. Unless you need Z4 hardiness, there are much better options
and if you need that cold-hardiness, you’d better hope the seedling understock is Z4 hardy
just sayin’


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#203

@Lucky_P

Can you or someone explain the different Chromosome type american persimmons? Since i was a child pollination of these trees seemed complicated. My grandfather when i was 4 or 5 years old broke it down to almost sound easy. He had in mind to use 1 male to every 6 females i think which seemed to work well enough with his wild persimmons. He got very heavy yields. He was not that exact if he had 9 females and 1 male that was fine or 3 females and 1 male at another spot that was ok. Forgetting numbers a minute lets just say he had a strategy. He might turn 5 males into wood but leave the best two males. He was working towards better patches rather than thinking like we do in terms of one tree at a time. If a female was to small it would get culled. Now i have lotus males and virginia named varities and life has became very complicated. The chromosomes are different. How do you know which virginia are the 90-chromosome type? The real reason im asking which you already know is parthenocarpic fruit is seedless. Wild persimmons are loaded with seeds. There is nothing worse than seeing only 10 pounds of fruit on a tree when it should yield 30+ pounds. If we get heavy pollination we get a bigger crop but we get more seeds. We dont want seeds but we still want 40 pound yields. Clearly there are many types of persimmons and they dont all cross pollinate nor does it sound like we want them to.

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#204

Various members of the ebony family (persimmon is a type of ebony) have ploidy levels from diploid (2 sets of chromosomes) up to nonaploid (9 sets of chromosomes). This means we have to grow a male with the same number of chromosomes in order to produce seed. Diospyros virginiana has two ploidy levels, tetraploid (4 sets) and hexaploid (6 sets). It is not possible to visually tell the two types apart though I have read that the tetraploid tends to produce taller more timber like trees. This may be a result of tetraploids growing on average further south in a climate to which it is better adapted. Hexaploid D. virginiana tends to grow further north which may limit vertical growth due to cold and snow.

Parthenocarpy is the tendency to produce fruit without pollination or with minimal pollination. Most persimmons exhibit parthenocarpy to some extent, some so much that they will set a full crop of seedless fruit in the absence of a pollinator. The problem with parthenocarpic fruit is that it is often smaller and less sweet than fruit that has seed.

Persimmon is also known to produce male flowers on otherwise female plants. These male flowers are somewhat special because the pollen will only produce female offspring. The mechanism behind male flowers is the persimmon’s method of sex determination. Basically, one copy of the male chromosome in a hexaploid genome does not automatically mean the tree is male. It can be a female with the ability to set occasional male flowers.

This gets more complicated when making crosses such as D. virginiana X D. kaki. The endosperm in the seed must be properly structured to support the resulting seedling. Endosperm has triple the base chromosome count. For D. virginiana and D. kaki, the endosperm is nonaploid (9 chromosomes). Even then, there are enough differences in the endosperm between the two species that crosses have only been viable via embryo rescue.

D. lotus is a diploid species. In interesting trivia, lotus may be able to cross with the 90 chromosome species to produce tetraploid offspring. How so? In meiosis, lotus would form a pollen cell with 1 set of chromosomes which would pair with 3 sets of chromsomes from a hexaploid species. It would most likely be necessary to use embryo rescue to produce a viable seedling.

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#205

This represents a limited sample size, but Steve Breyer at Tripple Brook Farm in Southhampton, MA has a sizeable collection of ~30+ yr old persimmons, including a bunch of 60 chromosome (tetraploid) ones. He was showing me some of the features that distinguish them visually from the more common 90 chromosome cultivars- at least in his view. Its been a few years, but if I remember correctly, the leaves were smaller, the twigs were slightly downy/tomentose, and the overall form and silhouette of the tree was distinct- more tall and spindly.

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#206

My suspicion is some persimmon are both a perfect male and female. Have seen persimmon by themselves far away from others with heavy crops. Have seen this with many mulberries. I grow over 100 mulberries so the gene pool is larger. Some mulberries are white and some are red but the best are the hybrids of the two types. Persimmons are easy to distinguish males from females once they flower. As a child i didn’t ever notice that. This leads me to believe there is much more we are still not up on. At one location the persimmons get very large. They are well over 70 feet. The persimmons are to high to reach on the majority of the trees. There are likely 60 + trees at that location. They all grow very fast. Tall persimmons is not desirable. They are very fertile persimmons. Once i did pick about 20 pounds of their fruit when i was around 10 years old and took them home put them in the refrigerator. Was eating them all winter. By spring all the remaining seeds in the fruit had sprouted and were growing. Did not realize i was accidently stratifying them. Kids love sweets and those persimmons were my only option to get something similar to candy. Thought very long at the time about the 20 foot full grown persimmons in some locations and the really big ones and those that were somewhere in between. At the time i was frustrated i did not want monster persimmons. I did not know how to graft. The observations of the trees i had to choose from were very inconsistent. Some persimmons were very seedy or very small or both. My grandparents lived in a warmer climate and the persimmons from there would not grow in Kansas. All these years later i find myself more hopeful we will unravel the secrets of the mysterious fruit. If we can learn from those who did the work already and from observations these could be the best fruits of all.

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#207

It doesn’t work that way Clark. If there are 3 or more copies of the male chromosome, the tree is male and produces pollen that may produce male or female offspring. With either 1 or 2 copies, the tree “may” produce some male flowers but because of the number of female chromosomes they will always produce predominantly female offspring. Persimmon - as it exists today - does not have the capacity to be perfect flowered. In another few thousand generations, this will probably change.

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#208

@Fusion_power

I realize american persimmon are not asian persimmon but i’m hopeful. People sometimes call perfect flowers those that they should be calling “sometimes perfect” When i just searched it i found this which means maybe we are closer than you think. Only time and lots of planting will produce perfect flowers or gmo intervention. https://www.homeorchardeducationcenter.org/

" Asian persimmons are self-fruitful.

Some hold “perfect” flowers (one flower containing both male & female parts) and others hold distinctly separate male and female flowers on the same tree. In either case, they will bear fruit without a second variety to cross pollinate."

It does sound like American persimmons have a ways to go.

" Persimmon Flower

While persimmon trees (Diospyros spp.) are best known for their delectably sweet autumn fruit, they also make very appealing ornamental trees. A big part of their appeal comes from the clusters of delicate, bell-shaped flowers that adorn their glossy-leaves, black-barked branches each spring. The flowers also determine whether a persimmon tree is male or female. We detail their roles in making persimmon fruit.

persimmon-flower

Male Persimmon Flowers

On malepersimmon trees, the flowers open in inflorescences, or clusters, of two to four. Like rows of tiny pink-tinged bells, they dangle from short, branching stalks. Each one measures about 1/3 inch long and contains up to 16 pollen-producing stamens.

Stamens

The stamens’ job is to produce and release pollen containing the male flowers’ genetic code. Each one has a slender filament topped with a pollen-producing anther.

Female Persimmon Flowers

On female persimmon trees, flowers open as single, pale-yellow blooms. They share the male flowers’ shape and short stalks, but are about twice their size. Each female flower has a pistil with four styles.

Pistils and Styles

A female flower’s pistil contains the ovaries, where its seeds develop. The four styles inside each pistil are stalks with sticky, pollen-trapping receptacles called stigmas.

Pollen trapped on the stigmas works its way down the pistil to the ovaries, where it fertilizes the ovules that produce the seeds. To protect and nourish the developing seeds, the ovaries around them swell into the berries we know as persimmon fruits.

Expert gardener’s tip: Male persimmon flowers can only pollinate female flowers from a tree of the same species. American persimmon trees (Diospyros virginiana, USDA zones 4 through 10) flowers, in other words, can’t pollinate Oriental persimmon trees (Diospyros kaki, USDA zone 7 through 11).

Self-Pollinating Persimmons

Some persimmon cultivars produce ‘perfect’ flowers with large ovaries at their bases and eight or more stamens inside centers. Basically, they’re bi-sexual and in the right conditions — capable of self pollination and producing seedless fruit.

They include the American persimmons:

  • ‘Prok’
  • ‘Yates’
  • ‘Meader’
  • ‘Early Golden’
  • ‘Prairie Dawn’

and the Oriental persimmons:

  • ‘Fuyu’
  • ‘Hachiya’
  • ‘Maekawa Jiro’
  • ‘Ichi Ki Kei Jiro‘

Expert gardener’s tip: Even though these cultivars can self-pollinate, they aren’t dependable. To boost their chances of setting fruit, many commercial growers plant them with a reliable male pollinator.

Pollinators

Bees are persimmon flowers’ primary pollinators, with wind helping out when bees are scarce. Expect the bees to collect nectar and pollen from dawn until dusk during the trees’ two-week spring bloom period."

" # Persimmon Tree Flowers: Beauty, Pollination, and Fruit

The word persimmon usually brings an image of yummy orange fruit to mind. But did you know that not all persimmon trees produce fruit? However, all species of persimmon trees yield beautiful flowers!

Keep reading to learn more about persimmon tree flowers!

Yellow flowers on a persimmon tree.

Varieties of Persimmon Trees

There are more than 500 varieties of persimmon trees, which are part of the diospyros genus.

Common characteristics of the plant include alternative leaf formation, the absence of terminal buds, and either dioecious or polygamous flowers. The varieties that produce fruit have a leathery texture, with a substantial calyx, and between 5-8 flattened seeds.

The most common varieties of persimmon trees that are grown in the U.S. are the Asian persimmon and the American persimmon. Both of these varieties produce fruit.

Interested in learning how to grow your own persimmon tree? Visit our articles on How to Grow a Persimmon Tree and Persimmon Tree Care.

Seasons of Persimmon Tree Flowers

Persimmon tree flowers starting to emerge from buds.

The flowers of the persimmon tree typically bloom in the late spring and last through early or mid-summer. The exact timeframe of the blooming depends on the variety of persimmon trees and the climate where it’s grown.

Some varieties take as long as five years to yield a bloom. Most persimmon tree flowers will bloom for the first time within two or three years of planting. For all fruit-bearing persimmons, fruit production occurs after the first bloom.

Flowers bloom about two weeks after the leaves first emerge from the buds.

To learn more about the various Persimmon Tree Types, visit our post!

A newly formed persimmon fruit.

The Appearance of Persimmon Tree Flowers

Persimmon tree flowers are known for their small, bell-shaped structure. The coloring of the flower will depend entirely on the variety of persimmon trees. Colors can range from white, pink, yellow, gray, and green.

Many varieties of the persimmon tree are dioecious, which means they grow either male or female flowers. Typically, the female persimmon flower and calyx will be larger in comparison to the male counterpart.

Male Plant

A cluster of yellow persimmon tree flowers.

The male persimmon tree usually produces flowers that grow in clusters of 2 to 4. They are often seen dangling from the branch like a bell.

These persimmon flowers usually measure ⅓ inch. They have a 4-part calyx, corolla, and 24 pollen-producing stamens set into two rows.

On average, the male tree must pollinate the female tree for fruit to grow.

Female Plant

Closeup of a single persimmon tree flower.

If you’ve ever eaten the fruit of the persimmon, you can thank the female plant! This is because only the female persimmon trees will bear fruit.

These flowers grow in single blooms. They are shaped the same as the male flower, but usually grow larger.

The female flower has a large calyx, a 4-part corolla, eight undeveloped stamens, and a pistil with four styles at its core.

If a female tree is not pollinated, it will usually wither or produce a small fruit that will drop from the tree before it ripens.

Self-Pollinating Plant

Some cultivars are perfect flowers. These have an enlarged ovary at the bottom of the flower and 8 or more stamens in the middle. They are considered bi-sexual, self-pollinate, and yield seedless fruit.

Pollination Process

The main pollinators for persimmon tree flowers are bees! Bees work to collect nectar and pollen, typically beginning two weeks before blooming. These bees carry the pollen from the male plant to the female plant.

They can accomplish this even if the male and female trees are several hundred yards apart. The honeybee has been known to travel 3 miles to pollinate persimmon trees!

The wind is a secondary pollinator for persimmon tree flowers. The spacing of the trees is essential if this is going to be considered a way to pollinate the female trees to produce fruit.

One male tree planted per eight female trees is the recommended guideline for proper pollination.

Persimmon Fruits

Persimmon fruits are typically available in the fall, with a harvest through October or November. If the fruit doesn’t fall, it can remain on the tree well into the wintertime.

Typically, the fruits measure 1-3 inches and are spherical. It is usually yellow, orange, or dark brown.

The fruits are typically astringent, which means they must be ripe before they’re eaten. These fruits are known for their sweetness and are usually soft, sometimes even gelatinous. The non-astringent types can be consumed before ripening when they are still firm, containing the same sweet flavor.

Ways to Enjoy Persimmon Fruits

These fruits can be eaten raw, dried, or cooked. They work well when added to salads or cooked into curries, puddings, cookies, and cakes.

Add a little persimmon flavor to your next meal!

  • Try slicing this fruit and adding it to your oatmeal or cereal.

  • Add the fruit to your next smoothie blend for an extra sweetener.

  • Serve this yummy [Persimmon Brown Rice Arugula Salad]

Health Benefits of Persimmon Fruits

Nutritionally, persimmons provide high levels of fiber, vitamins A and C, and iron, calcium, and potassium. Consuming persimmons is a great way to include fresh fruits into your diet when it’s past the summer season.

Varieties of Persimmon Fruits

The most common persimmon varieties within the U.S. are the Asian and American fruits. The average grocery store carries the Asian Fuyu persimmon, if they carry them at all.

The main difference between these two species of persimmon is size, flavor, hardiness to cold, and the area to which it’s indigenous. American persimmons are astringent, meaning they must be ripe to be enjoyed. Asian persimmons are often found in both the astringent and non-astringent varieties.

Storing the Fruits

Persimmon fruits are best eaten fresh. They can be stored at room temperature for 3-5 days. The fruits can be stored in the refrigerator for up to 2 months.

Enjoying the Beauty of Persimmon Tree Flowers

Regardless of the variety, persimmon tree flowers are always a sight to behold. Their delicate nature makes driving through an area with persimmon trees a delight throughout the springtime.

To learn more about Persimmon Trees, visit our post!

Posted onLast updated: April 28, 2023"

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#209

When a persimmon flower has both an ovary and pollen stamens, that flower will self-pollinate, but the fruit is seedless. A perfect flowered persimmon would produce both pollen and ovules and would self-pollinate to make seed in the fruit.

When a tree has both male and female flowers, it can self-pollinate and can set seed or can provide pollen for other females in the area. The reason is because the flowers are separate therefore the female flower is fully functional. This type expression is when there are one or two copies of the male version of the sex differentiation gene. Taishu is an example in kaki and Early Golden is an example in virginiana.

Said another way, the bohites stating that some persimmons are perfect flowered are perfectly incorrect.

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#210

It’s amazing how complicated polygamous plants can be, especially in species transitioning from dioecism to monoecism. And yet the ancients knew well enough – selecting cultivars for crop quality, productivity, and sexuality. Mentions of this can be found in the Roman “On Agriculture” texts and Pliny’s “Natural History”. I speculate that documentation also exists from other regions of historical interest (e.g. central Asia, east Asia) but I’ve yet to come across it. However I have read translations of mathematical writings from those regions dating back millennia before the Romans.

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#211

For someone looking to get their first American persimmon, I think 100-46 (Lehman’s delight) is a great choice. It is super precocious and tastes great to me. The precociousness I think will keep it small and you could certainly prune it a bit and still get plenty of fruit. I’ll have to wait until my other Americans produce to compare it, but I was very happy with the 3 fruit I got off the tree last year when it was just 2 feet tall. This year it is about 2.5 feet tall (has a fair amount of lower growth as well) and is holding onto 8 fruit. While I probably should take some or all off, I’m in no rush to make it into a huge tree and I’m greedy.

100-46
100-461920×2382 744 KB

My Prok on the other hand is a heart breaker when it comes to dropping fruit. It was one of the first persimmons I planted and it dropped every fruit last year, which was well over a 100 pieces, but I blamed that on me tossing some fertilizer under it as I was fertilizing other plants in my rain garden, which is right behind it. But this year, when the tree started the year over 12 feet tall, it set and is dropping hundreds again. It stopped for a while, but is dropping a few dozen a day again and it may just drop them all.

persimmonsdown
persimmonsdown1920×1440 763 KB

I did cover crop the area under and around the Prok fairly heavily over the winter - peas, rye, daikon, crimson clover, etc. And I’ve also mulched with wood chips in the area and I know my plants are very vigorous due to the covers and mulching. And the third thing is that I’ve top worked some of the tree to a few other varieties, but I did leave most of it in place and the grafting was a few weeks back so I’m not sure what the issue is. Cover crops and mulching? Grafting? Just a mean tree? I did cut open a bunch of the fruit and many have at least a few seeds in them from native male trees in the area, so I guess even pollination didn’t help. Here is the tree, which is massive compared to that fruit-retentive little 100-46.

Prok
Prok1920×2560 861 KB

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#212

I’ve seen the Nikita Bordeaux hybrid rated at 8’ to 10’ for mature height. What is the mature height rating for D.v. 100-46 (Lehman’s delight)?

1 Like
#213

Find this very interesting since i like to know history of plant breeders. This is his obituary and work.
"
eyJ3IjozMDAsImQiOjcyLCJtIjoiSlBHIiwidXJsIjoiaHR0cHM6XC9cL2FkYXMtb3JlZ29uLWNhcy1vYml0cy5zMy5hbWF6b25hd3MuY29tXC9waG90b3NcL2NyZWF0ZV9zdG9yeVwvNTcxOTM1YTg3NzkyMVwvZjc1ZjI3NzlkNTc4ZTdiYmVmMzNmN2QzOGRk

James Claypool

August 17, 1918 - March 28, 2010

James V. Claypool, 91, a World War II Naval aviator, St. Elmo businessman and accomplished amateur botanist, died Sunday, March 28, 2010, at Fayette County Hospital in Vandalia, Illinois. Claypool was born to Joseph and Blanche Claypool of Casey, Illinois, on August 17, 1918 and moved to St. Elmo, Illinois in 1938. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941, Claypool left school at the University of Illinois to enlist. A member of the “Flying Illini” training class at Lambert Field in St. Louis, he received advanced flight training at the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Florida. Lieutenant Claypool served as a flight instructor and later flew four-engine transport planes in the South Pacific, carrying wounded soldiers and medical supplies. After a four-year, war-separated engagement, Claypool married elementary school teacher Marilyn Olson of St. Elmo in 1946 and took over the family oil drilling business, operating oil and water drilling rigs in Southern Illinois for the next 36 years. After retiring in l982, Claypool turned his attention to a longtime hobby — plant breeding. With a particular interest in the native American persimmon fruit, Claypool spent the next 25 years cross-breeding the best varieties of wild persimmons. He created dozens of new hybrids with superior taste, look and hardiness. He exchanged correspondence, seeds and scion wood samples with researchers throughout the United States and around the globe. In 1993 and again in 1995, a delegation of Russian plant scientists toured his 2,000-tree persimmon orchard in rural Fayette County. Claypool’s new persimmon varieties have been planted in Russia, Canada, Japan and Belgium, and throughout the United States. His research has been published in plant breeding magazines such as Pomona, and his best new fruit varieties are cataloged and maintained for other researchers and enthusiasts by the Indiana Nut Growers Association. He is survived by his wife Marilyn; two sons, Mark and wife Carrie of Greenville, South Carolina, and Forrest and wife Daina of Chicago; and five grandchildren, Christopher, Matthew, Lee, Max, and Caitlin. He also leaves a niece, Angela Claypool, and sister-in-law, Peggy Claypool, of Aurora, Colorado. His parents and a brother, David, preceded him in death. After cremation, a private family memorial service will be held at a later date. Memorials may be made to the First United Methodist Church and the St. Elmo Library."

Claypool orchard 2005 (1).pdf (619.4 KB)

He was also an author Claypool Farms: Experimental Persimmon Research - James V. Claypool - Google Books

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#214

IMG_7555
IMG_75551920×2560 665 KB

Same story here! Mine is over 16 feet tall and probably dropped around a thousand blossoms despite my best efforts. There are still dozens of fruit but it’s depressing given that it’s a small shade tree now. My 100-46 is displaying the same behavior as yours. It doesn’t drop a thing and will break branches from carrying an enormous load despite its smaller size. It’s probably smaller from all the branch breaking too.

3 Likes
#215

Sorry, I haven’t seen this written anywhere so I can’t say for sure, but I would think it would be easy to keep it at 10 feet or so with some pruning. I would be surprised if it got much over 12-15 feet anytime soon if left to grow. Prok, on the other hand, I’ve seen reports of it getting to 30 feet.

Hopefully some other growers of 100-46 will chime in. I believe @SMC_zone6 has had 100-46 for a while so might be a good judge.

2 Likes
#216

@Richard @Outsidetoday
The ploidy level of several wild persimmons is noted below if those gps coordinates help. The map definately shows tetraploid versus hexaploid persimmon locations. That is all most people need to know. Many persimmon growers want to know how Claypool and Lehman got together. This explains everything i wanted to know about how to identify chromosomes once they fruit as well.
Persimmons Can Offer Growers an Additional Revenue Stream .This article i felt is very good.

"

Persimmons Can Offer Growers an Additional Revenue Stream

  • Deborah Jeanne Sergeant New York Correspondent
  • Apr 8, 2016 Updated Aug 24, 2021

SENECA FALLS, N.Y. — Jerry Lehman, who has spent 25 years developing a commercially viable persimmon tree for U.S. growers, shared his research with attendees of a recent “Rare Fruit Workshop,” put on by Cornell Cooperative Extension in Seneca Falls.

The Terre Haute, Ind., native told the two-dozen attendees how he learned about persimmons. After retirement, he wanted to get back to his farming roots.

Lehman said he first explored apples, but felt he wanted to grow something more unusual. Then he met Jim Claypool, known as the world’s most prolific persimmon grower, who collected and bred all 2,400 known varieties of persimmons. Lehman never looked back. He helped Claypool in his persimmon breeding efforts and tried to learn all he could from his mentor.

Claypool has since died, but Lehman carries on his legacy and shares their knowledge of persimmons as often and widely as he can.

Of the two main types of persimmons — 60 chromosome (60c) and 90 chromosome (90c) — Lehman recommends 90c for its larger fruit size — up to 2.25 inches in diameter — greater sweetness, fluid pulp and earlier ripening. They’re also parthenocarpic, unlike 60c which require fertilization to grow fruit.

By contrast, 60c persimmons ripen later, after frost, which can make them ill-suited for growing in the Northeast. The fruit grows to only 1 inch in diameter.

Growers cannot cross-pollinate 60c and 90c persimmons.

Lehman said growers can tell the difference between male and female trees by looking for one flower or, during winter, pedicel per stem for male trees and three per stem for female trees.

“Bees are excellent pollinators for persimmons, but most varieties don’t need pollination,” Lehman said.

Saplings may be planted 8 to 10 inches deep.

“Persimmons are not choosy about soil type,” he said. “It is necessary to have nitrogen on persimmons I’m beginning to believe, though I haven’t performed tests on it.”

Lehman uses rotted wood chips and commercial fertilizer. The fruit matures in late fall. Many people believe that frost must precede persimmon harvest, but Lehman said new varieties are ripe before frost, which can make it possible for Northern growers to add persimmons to their farms.

To prevent his ripe fruit from dropping on the ground, Lehman said he constructs safety nets by building a PVC pipe frame and stretching landscape cloth on it. Though the safety net also collects bird droppings and can suffer damage from deer, he said he appreciates the amount of fruit it saves.

To clean the fruit, he fills a laundry basket with fruit and lowers it into a larger container. It holds a solution of one tablespoon of bleach per gallon of water. After soaking the fruit a few minutes, he removes the laundry basket and rinses the fruit.

Many people like making persimmon sauce as an end product. Since persimmons don’t store long-term, saucing them can allow growers to offer customers a value-added product with shelf life.

Smaller operations can get by with kitchen-scale applesauce-making equipment, such as a Squeezo food mill.

Some growers may wonder if investing in persimmons is worth it if there’s no market, but Lehman said that’s backwards thinking.

“You can’t market a product if you don’t have a supply,” he said.

He added that numerous people, including the late Col. Harland Sanders, KFC’s founder, considered using persimmons but could find no adequate source of the fruit.

“Pass out samples and educate the public at your farmers market,” he said.

Lehman said persimmons graft easily and don’t leave an open wound long. Any damage to the ground-level bark, however, can severely damage and even kill the trees, so growers must carefully mow and trim weeds among the trees.

Grafting side branches doesn’t work well because they don’t receive full sun. Lehman recalled his mentor, Claypool, grafting side branches on numerous trees only to see them drop off. The lack of sunlight caused the grafting failure, he said.

Lehman said growers planting persimmon seeds should insert the seed into the soil 8 inches apart with the “eye” of the seed upward. The eye is the rounded end that has a slight opening.

“If you’re planting 1,000 seeds in a nursery, you may not want to take the time to look,” he said.

After six weeks, the persimmon seeds sprout, a trait which has confused seed buyers who thought Lehman had sent them home with duds.

Persimmon pests include twig girdlers, which cut slots in twig bark, lay seeds in them, chew the twigs until they fall off and allow eggs to incubate on the ground. Growers should pick up and destroy any fallen twigs under trees to interrupt the twig girdler life cycle.

“It can be very devastating if you have a large number of trees,” he said.

The persimmon bore larva also chews into the tree, causing bark damage. Lehman said knocking off and destroying any structures built by the insects helps control them along with spraying and filling in their holes with tree wound sealer.

Tent worms also plague persimmon trees by eating their leaves. Lehman said to pull off their spider web-like structures and stomp on them.

Fungus can also affect persimmon trees’ leaves, turning the veins dark. He said that fungus spreads quickly on a persimmon’s leaves and oftentimes on leaves the following year. But it doesn’t seem to harm the tree permanently, he said, just its harvest by splitting the fruit’s skin.

He hasn’t used spray for fungus, but said apple tree spray would likely work for persimmons.

His favorite varieties of persimmons are H63A, Dollywood and H91A for their production and fruit quality. Cold-hardy, early harvest varieties can help Northeastern growers succeed in growing persimmons.

Deborah Jeanne Sergeant is a freelance writer in central New York. Connect with her online at www.skilledquill.net."

A little more about Lehman https://my-indiana-home.com/food/passion-for-persimmons-grower-strives-to-commercialize-the-seasonal-fruit/
" Passion for Persimmons: Grower Strives to Commercialize the Seasonal Fruit

By Susan Hayhurst | August 10, 2012

Editor’s note: We were sorry to learn that Jerry Lehman passed away in April 2019, but we can think of no better tribute to his legacy than leaving up this story about his persimmon farm.

When leaves start to turn brilliant colors in the fall, thoughts of favorite autumn foods come to mind. For many in Indiana, persimmon pudding and persimmon cookies are at the top of the list.

Terre Haute grower Jerry Lehman’s freezer is brimming with persimmon pulp always ready for his family’s beloved desserts. To say he’s passionate about persimmons wouldn’t be an exaggeration. In fact, Lehman is so enthusiastic about the globular, bright orange fruit that he has dedicated his retirement, nearly 15 years, to developing a persimmon tree that can be commercially produced in the United States.

An Indiana Persimmon Orchard

Raised on a farm in Berne, Lehman’s family instilled in him persistence and patience, traits key to starting his orchard in southwestern Vigo County and growing it to nearly 1,000 trees. Lehman and his wife, Barbara, use golf carts to traverse the orchards. He can cite the type of tree, planting date and fruit characteristics as if giving information about his grown children.

Jerry and Barbara Lehman of Lehman Persimmon Farms in Terre Haute
1521111JWA8517

“Though there are about 20 farms producing persimmons in Indiana, there are no commercial persimmon growers like there are commercial apple orchards,” Lehman explains. “In my experimental orchard, I’m trying to develop a viable American persimmon tree with hardiness and quality. My goal is not to mass produce the fruit but work toward commercializing the American persimmon to benefit consumers and provide another avenue of income for Hoosier farmers.”

Much of Lehman’s 85-acre orchard is planted in American persimmon trees, but Asian persimmon trees have also been grown from seeds and cultivated in open pollination. They, too, dot his landscape and have been backcrossed to American trees.

“The Asian fruit is really good and sweet and red in color,” says Lehman, the first fruit producer to import the Asian-American hybrid to the United States in 1992. Two years later, he became the second to grow and test the viability of the hybrid.

“My zest for growing persimmons comes from my mentor, the late Jim Claypool of St. Elmo, Ill.,” Lehman says. “He was considered the most prolific persimmon grower in the world.”

Claypool had some 2,400 hand-selected, pollinated trees and was looking for someone to carry on his work. When he died, his family allowed Lehman to move about 100 of Claypool’s trees to his Hoosier farm.

Growing and Storing Persimmons

Persimmon trees should grow in full sun and be spaced 25 feet apart, Lehman says. They are somewhat self-pruning and ideally should top out at 20 to 25 feet high. “You don’t want persimmon trees to grow too high because the fruit falls to the ground when it’s ripe and goes ‘splat,’ ” he says.

The trees, which can be purchased through catalogs for about $25, typically include varieties for early ripening, large and nearly seedless. Planting to fruit production takes about five to six years.

According to Lehman, the best fruit harvest happens in mid-September to the end of October. Fully ripened fruit drops to the ground and should be picked up frequently. He warns persimmon lovers that the American fruit is not instantly edible.

“It is known to be ‘astringent’ – needs to ripen fully before it is fit to eat or be used in cooking,” Lehman says. “Not often can you pick persimmons and eat them right off the tree.” However, he notes that many Asian varieties are ‘non-astringent’ and can be eaten from the tree.

Persimmon Party

Remember, he adds, that persimmons must be pureed to create the pulp for end use in recipes such as pudding, bread and cookies. The pulp should be stored frozen unless it’s being used immediately. Persimmon pulp must be processed in federally inspected kitchens to be available at farmers markets, specialty groceries and gourmet food vendors. The fruit is rich in dietary fiber, low in calories and is known for its antioxidant compounds, such as vitamins A and C, beta-carotene and lycopene.

“I know persimmons are healthy for you,” Lehman says. “But I know what I enjoy, and persimmon pudding is my favorite dessert. And I’m just as happy eating persimmon cookies and bread.”

This is an old NAFEX communication from 2006

https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex/2006-March/021792.html

" NAFEX] Claypool Persimmon Orchard - A call for help


mangodance bmn at iglou.com
Fri Mar 17 12:39:51 EST 2006

BTW, if anyone belongs to other fruit groups, lives in or near St. Elmo, or can otherwise get the word out, please cut and paste the following notice. THANKS for any help. IMMEDIATE RELEASE - March 17, 2006: CONTACT: webmaster at persimmonpudding.com Critical historical persimmon orchard is in trouble and YOUR time is needed! The Claypool Persimmon Orchard is located on 3 acres in southeastern Illinois, just outside of the small town of St. Elmo. It is VERY important historically but in serious trouble. Its owner makes no money from it. He is in his 90s and cannot do needed maintenance. He has always used it for the public good. Countless numbers of home growers, fruit researchers, and more have greatly benefited by the owner’s benevolence with regard to allowing access and providing loads of information. The situation is dire. The orchard has recently become severely damaged by twig girdlers. In case this beetle is new to you, here’s the thumbnail sketch. Younger twigs are girdled (usually before a fork) by adult beetles in late summer to early fall. They then lay eggs in the outer part. This outer part of the twig will drop to the ground eventually. What happens in the outer portion of the twig is that the eggs hatch, larvae feed and grow and then by late spring to early summer, pupate. They emerge as adults in the late summer to early fall and the cycle continues. The critical point in disrupting this is to gather up all of the twigs, which have fallen (and any that have been girdled but not yet fallen) and burn them. This will burn any larvae/pupae that will be using the twigs to grow into adults. Several knowledgeable folks will be on hand to discuss persimmons (and other topics), answer questions, talk science, home orchards, etc. You can learn not only about persimmons, but a little natural history, as well as work on something worthwhile. Please read the account below and PLEASE let me know if you’d like to help. Dates are not yet available, as we’re at the start of planning. However, this will need to happen SOON
probably in April, possibly May. We’re searching for local scout troops, FFA, and other leads on anyone we can get. The plan is to have all of us volunteers gather on-site, and do some damage to the twig girdler population. We plan to set up some fire barrels, and round up the fallen twigs. Additionally, if we have the people and equipment, we hope to do some cleanup mowing and such. We can put a real dent in this, but we need warm bodies (and maybe some folks who can haul in barrels and a mower or three). The Claypool Persimmon Orchard is an important historical fruit collection that suffers from a little neglect. Jim Claypool has always used this orchard for the public good and we believe this should be reciprocated. We are at a point in history when these historic orchards are under threat from a variety of pressures and many have been lost. Sorry for the soapbox, but the description of the damage in the orchard is alarming
but not irreversible. If we can rustle up enough folks, this could be done in a matter of a few hours. Additionally, Your volunteer efforts for a day can have far-reaching benefits. PLEASE give this some consideration. I’ll update when we can give some specifics. Again, we’re shooting for late April, possible May. And, if any of you hold any sway over groups of people, and think you can mobilize, PLEASE contact me ASAP. Thanks for reading. Please help spread the word. barry webmaster at persimmonpudding.com

More information about the nafex mailing list"

This document discusses ploidy levels
Pomper et al 2019 - Ploidy Level in American Persimmon.pdf (404.6 KB)

Abstract

The American persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) is a slow-growing, moderately sized tree fruit native to the forests of Kentucky. This tree fruit is in the early stages of commercial production with many cultivars selected from the wild. Small orchards of commercially available cultivars are planted in Kentucky. Persimmons are normally dioecious, and female trees require cross-pollination to produce fruit. There are two races of persimmon: the tetraploid (60-chromosome) race is centered in the southern Appalachian region, while the hexaploid (90-chromosome) race generally occupies a range north and west of the tetraploid range. These ranges overlap in Kentucky. Because the ranges overlap, cross-pollination may cause sexual incompatibility, resulting in pollination without fertilization, and therefore seedless fruits of poor quality. The objective of this study was to assess the ploidy level of commercially available American persimmon cultivars and native Kentucky persimmon populations. Leaf samples were collected from 45 cultivars and advanced selections, as well as 45 trees from native populations in Bullitt, Barren, and Franklin Counties. Flow cytometer analysis showed that only four of the selected cultivars were from the tetraploid race: Ennis Seedless, Weeping, Sugar Bear, and SFES; the remaining cultivars were from the hexaploid race. Both hexaploid and tetraploid American persimmon trees were identified in the populations sampled in the Bullitt County locations, but only tetraploid races were found in Franklin and Barren Counties. Because pollen from native trees could result in seedless fruit formation of poor quality when native seedlings are used as pollinizers in commercial production of American persimmon, ploidy level of seedlings needs to be considered.

Keywords: fruit-set; germplasm; polyploidy; tree-fruit

The American persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) is a slow-growing, moderately sized tree-fruit native to the forests of the southeastern and midwestern United States (Nesom, 2018) and is in the early stages of commercial orchard production (Skallerup, 1953). The American persimmon is tolerant to a range of soil conditions and trees have a long productive life of more than 20 years (Goodell, 1982; McDaniel, 1973a, 1973b; Troop, 1895). Overall, American persimmon is well adapted to low input culture by small growers with few pests and diseases (Kaiser and Ernst, 2017; Nesom, 2018; Crandall and Baker, 1950; Kaiser and Ernst, 2017).

The American persimmon matures over a long ripening season, and trees have a long, productive life (McDaniel, 1973a, 1973b). The golden-orange fruit are sweet when fully ripe and astringency is reduced. A common misconception is that the persimmon fruit is not edible and less astringent until it has frozen, but this is not the case with most cultivars (Troop, 1895). The fruit is well suited for processing and preservation by freezing. Its pulp can be used in pudding, cookies, cake, custard, and ice cream (Briand, 2005; Goodell, 1982). Ground persimmon seeds have been used as a substitute for coffee (Briand, 2005) and tea made from the leaves of persimmon has antioxidant properties (Kobayashi et al., 2017). Flowers are a significant nectar source for bees (Troop and Hadley, 1895). The most widely cultivated persimmon species across the world is Diospyros kaki, the Oriental or Japanese persimmon, with its large, light yellow-orange to dark red-orange nonastringent fruit; however, this species is not well adapted to the Kentucky climate, and cultivars do not share a similar genetic background (Ames, 2010; RaddovĂĄ et al., 2012).

American persimmon improvement began in the late 19th century with the work of Dr. James Troop at Purdue University (Plumb, 1896; Troop, 1895; Troop and Hadley, 1895). The first named American persimmon cultivar was selected out of the wild in Illinois in 1880 (Miller, 1894). This original cultivar, Early Golden, has served as the female parent of many of the cultivars developed throughout the 20th century. Professor J.C. McDaniel (1973a) from the University of Illinois had a strong interest in persimmon and was responsible for selecting the cultivars John Rick and Florence. James Claypool continued breeding American persimmon in the 1970s (Goodell, 1982). Over the course of 20 years, Claypool evaluated more than 2000 trees and kept extensive orchard records describing the characteristics of each tree in his breeding project (Jerry Lehman, personal communication). Some of the Claypool selections are commercially available from nurseries.

Troop and Hadley (1895) reported that American persimmons are normally dioecious and require cross-pollination with another cultivar to produce fruit. At least three American persimmon cultivars, Early Golden, Gatterson, and Killen, are usually pistillate (female-flower) trees; however, some branchlets of staminate (male) flowers occur and can furnish pollen for fruit set (McDaniel, 1973a, 1973b).

There are two races of American persimmon: a tetraploid (60-chromosome) race is centered in the southern Appalachian Mountains and adjacent areas and a hexaploid (90-chromosome) race occupies the range north and west of the tetraploid range (Fig. 1). Using light microscopy observation of root tips stained with crystal violet, hexaploid genotypes were identified for plants generated from seeds collected from trees in Delaware, Georgia, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Texas, Virginia, and West Virginia, whereas tetraploid genotypes were identified from sites in Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee (Baldwin and Culp, 1941). This study included only single tree samples of seeds for most states, although several additional trees were sampled in Georgia, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia. The ranges for persimmons with these two ploidy levels overlap in Kentucky (Baldwin and Culp, 1941).

Fig. 1.
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Fig. 1.

Reported tetraploid and hexaploid American persimmon populations based on the data of Baldwin and Culp (1941) and data in the current study.

Citation: HortScience horts 55, 1; 10.21273/HORTSCI14274-19

Most cultivated American persimmon cultivars are considered likely to be the northern hexaploid race; however, there has not been a thorough examination of ploidy level for commercially available cultivars (Choi et al., 2003; McDaniel, 1973a; Nissen and Roberts, 2015). This study is the first to examine the contribution of the tetraploid race toward the commercially available cultivar base. Because both ranges overlap, pollen from a different race with a different pollen ploidy number would result in sexual incompatibility, resulting in pollination without fertilization and the production of seedless fruits. This could allow for the development of orchard production with staminate tetraploid race trees with hexaploid pistillate cultivars to produce seedless fruit. McDaniel (1973a) noted that trees of ‘Wabash’, a hexaploid, ripen seedless fruit when pollinated by tetraploid males. McDaniel (1973b) noted that seedless fruits of American persimmon do not have as edible a quality because seeded fruits on the same clone and seedless clones are consistently inferior in sweetness to the best seeded cultivars. The objective of this study was to assess the ploidy level of commercially available American persimmon cultivars and native Kentucky persimmon populations to compare tetraploid and hexaploid contributions to this germplasm for grower knowledge.

Materials and Methods

Plant material.

Leaf samples, the youngest three terminal leaves, were collected from 46 cultivars and advanced selections, as well as 45 trees from native populations in Bullitt, Barren, and Franklin Counties. Leaf samples were collected in July 2017 from the American persimmon cultivars Prairie Star, Prairie Sun, Mohler, Early Golden, Garretson, and Meader trees located at the Harold R. Benson Research and Demonstration Farm in Frankfort, Kentucky (Table 1). Leaf samples from additional cultivars or numbered selections were obtained from the budwood mother blocks at England’s Orchard and Nursery in McKee, Kentucky. Leaf samples from at least 10 trees at each site were also collected in June and July 2017 from wild American persimmon populations from Bullitt, Barren, and Franklin Counties in Kentucky at sites within one mile of the Global Positioning System coordinates listed in Table 2. Additionally, in October 2018, the average fruit weight and number of seeds per fruit were evaluated for at least 10 fruit from six trees in the area where leaves were previously sampled in Bullitt County, Kentucky (Table 3).

Table 1.

Ploidy level for American persimmon cultivars.

Table 1.
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Table 2.

Ploidy level in wild American persimmon trees.

Table 2.
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Table 3.

Average fruit weights and seeds per fruit for 10 fruit each from six wild American persimmon trees, sampled in Bullitt County, Kentucky.

Table 3.
Table 3.1024×232 43.4 KB
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Ploidy level determination.

Ploidy analysis was conducted by Plant Cytometry Services (Berkenhof 37, 6941 ZR, Didam, The Netherlands; https://plantcytometry.com/) based on the method of Arumuganathan and Earle (1991). Briefly, leaf material (1–2 cm2, 50–100 mg) was chopped with a sharp razor blade in an ice-cold buffer in a plastic petri dish. The DNA buffer consisted of 0.1% 4â€Č,6-diamidino-2-phenylindole (DAPI) with 0.1% dithiothreitol and 1% polyvinyl pyrrolidone 10. After chopping, the buffer (≈2 mL), containing cell constituents and large tissue remnants, was passed through a nylon filter (50-ÎŒm mesh size). Nuclei were isolated from the leaf samples and stained with the DNA specific dye DAPI. The solution with stained nuclei was sent through a flow cytometer (CyFlow Space; Sysmex Partec GmbH, Görlitz, Germany) with a high-power ultraviolet light–emitting diode (365 nm). Ploidy levels were determined by comparing them with standards Pachysandra terminalis Sieb. & Zucc. and Vinca minor L.

Results and Discussion

Ploidy levels were determined for 45 American persimmon cultivars commercially available from nurseries. Only four selected cultivars were from the tetraploid race: Ennis Seedless, Weeping, Sugar Bear, and SFES (Table 1). Both hexaploid and tetraploid American persimmon trees were found in the populations sampled in the Bullitt County locations, but only tetraploid races were found in Franklin and Barren Counties (Table 2).

Most cultivated American persimmon cultivars were assumed to be the northern hexaploid race; however, a thorough examination of ploidy level for commercially available cultivars had not been conducted (Choi et al., 2003; McDaniel, 1973a; Nissen and Roberts, 2015). On the basis of the results of this study, it would appear that the hexaploid race has led to the selection of most commercial cultivars although a few cultivars were tetraploid selections. Kentucky is in the unique position to have both races represented in forests around the Commonwealth. There were both hexaploid and tetraploid American persimmon trees in the populations sampled in the Bullitt County locations, whereas only tetraploid races were found in Franklin and Barren Counties. Because the ranges overlap, pollen from a different race may cause sexual incompatibility, resulting in pollination without fertilization and the production of seedless fruits. This could allow for the development of orchard production with male tetraploid race trees with hexaploid pistillate cultivars to produce seedless fruit. Many native trees in the forests of Kentucky are of the tetraploid race and grow near commercial plantings of persimmons, and thus pollen from a different race may cause sexual incompatibility and result in pollination without fertilization—and therefore production of seedless fruits of poor quality for consumption. Planting hexaploid female cultivars with male seedling pollinizer trees of the tetraploid race could produce seedless fruit of reduced quality, because some Kentucky forests could have hexaploid native male trees nearby, which could result in seed set of fruit in the commercial hexaploid cultivars. However, in 2018, the number of seeds per fruit was evaluated from at least 10 fruit from six trees in the previously sampled area in Bullitt County Kentucky. Average fruit weight ranged between 6.3 to 19.3 g on individual trees with a 12.2-g average fruit weight across all trees sampled (Table 3). Average number of seeds per fruit ranged from 1.7 to 5.5 seeds per fruit on individual trees sampled, with an average number of seed per fruit of 3.9 across all trees sampled. Only two fruit of 60 sampled were seedless. Apparently, although pollen from native trees may result in seedless fruit formation in Kentucky and native seedlings, pollen from nearby trees with the same ploidy level is usually sufficient for seed formation in fruit.

Over the course of 20+ years, James Claypool has evaluated more than 2000 trees and made a number of cultivar releases (Whitson, 2007). Analysis of leaf samples collected from 18 Claypool selections and 10 commercially available showed that all Claypool selections, including Dollywood, Elmo (A-118), F-34, F-62, H-118 Early Jewel, H-120, H-55a, H-63a Claypool, H-63a Osage Seedling, I-115, J-127, J-59 Claypool, K1, K2, K6, Prairie Star, and Prairie Sun were all from the hexaploid race; the non–Claypool-selected cultivars Early Golden, Garretson, Golden Supreme, Meader, Mohler, NC-10, and Yates were also from this race. Four non–Claypool-selected commercial cultivars were from the tetraploid race: Ennis Seedless, Weeping, SFES, and Sugar Bear. These data support the idea that the hexaploid race is also strongly represented in the high-quality material of the Claypool germplasm that was selected (Goodell, 1982). It remains to be seen whether high-quality tetraploid germplasm can be located to contribute toward American persimmon improvement.

In conclusion, this was the first comprehensive study to assess the ploidy level of commercially available American persimmon cultivars and native Kentucky persimmon populations. Flow cytometer analysis of the leaf samples showed that only four selected cultivars were from the tetraploid race: Ennis Seedless, Weeping, Sugar Bear, and SFES. These results support the concept that most cultivated American persimmon cultivars have been selected from the northern hexaploid race. Both hexaploid and tetraploid American persimmon trees were found in the populations sampled in the Bullitt County locations, but only tetraploid races were found in Franklin and Barren Counties. Because pollen from native trees could result in seedless fruit formation in Kentucky, native seedlings could serve as pollinizers in commercial production of American persimmon and have seedless fruit of reduced quality.

Literature Cited

Received:
06 Jun 2019
| Accepted:
16 Oct 2019
| Published online:
16 Dec 2019
| Published-print:
01 Jan 2020
"

The map simply tells us where the hexaploid persimmons came from versus tetraploid. Hexaploid (of a cell or nucleus) containing six homologous sets of chromosomes.“The phenomenon of polyploidy, which refers to the multiplication of chromosome sets within cells, often doubling a normal (diploid) set into a quadruple (tetraploid) set, is a widespread and distinctive feature of the higher plants (Stebbins, 1950).”

There are two races of persimmon: the tetraploid (60-chromosome) race is centered in the southern Appalachian region, while the hexaploid (90-chromosome) race generally occupies a range north and west of the tetraploid range. These ranges overlap in Kentucky.

1 Like
#217

For those of you wondering about Claypools orchard in St Elmo Illinois here it is.

Dave Jennings now owns Claypools orchard Claypool/Jennings Orchard – Best Persimmon

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2 Likes
#218

.
I have learned to tell them ( 60 vs 90s ) apart here in Wv .
My native local persimmons are the 60 Chromosome type .
The 60s leafs and new growth twigs are not hairy ,
( Not tomentose )

The 90s ,cultivars that I graft, have a noticeable fuzz (tomentose ) on new growth twigs, and fuzz on the leafs too.
This is most noticeable on new growth in early spring.
So much so , that I can see the difference from 10ft away in my nursery .
Also ,The leafs on the 60s are noticeably smaller than the 90s
.
This is further verified by the fact that my local native trees are fully seeded .
Where as the grafted 90s only have a occasional seed.

5 Likes
#219

From Englands Nursery

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2 Likes
#220

" OBJECT OF DESIRE: Persimmon Pleasures

MEGAN FERNANDEZ

May 20, 2011

You might be a Hoosier if you know the location of a secret backroad persimmon tree that supplies you with free, foraged fruit for baking. Charlotte and Kent Waltz of Persimmon Pleasures in Bedford are most definitely Hoosiers. They’re so Hoosier, in fact, Charlotte’s cousin is said to have discovered a variety of persimmon on his Southern Indiana farm some 50 years ago. He used it to win the 1957 Mitchell Persimmon Festival (which still exists) and subsequently named it the Morris-Burton persimmon. That’s what you’ll taste inside one of Charlotte’s persimmon-chocolate-chip cookies newly available at Conner Prairie (13400 Allisonville Rd., Fishers, 776-6000). The persimmon pulp that gives the treat its chewiness carries the Indiana Artisan seal of approval."