There are 18 M.B. hybrids.
Check with H. Ikegami.
18 Morris Burtons but how many other supposed hybrids of other DV names? Whatās the total count?
Iām not concerned with them in this discussion.
At this point interspecifics are more a discussion for the kaki x american persimmon thread more than this one. It is a very interesting topic but i donāt want to take this discussion to far off track. Wish there was an easy test to eliminate them from american persimmon breeding.
3 Likes
Where other than the list @Richard has compiled can we read about any of these F-1ās? Are these among those crossed by David LaVergne? Does anyone here know much about David (I understand he passed away some time ago) or the nature of his work, specialty, or methods? I donāt understand the logistics of embryo rescue, but there definitely are folks who employ impressive lab quality methods at a home scale. Iām thinking particularly of the field of mycology, but surely there are others in which the economics are not really there and so the small player has some opportunity to make some substantial contribution to the body of knowledge.
1 Like
I read a paper (from Japan?) that discusses the specifics of embryo rescue. I believe I posted the full text article. I could check later if needed.
Isnāt there an organization dedicated to preserving and furthering his work?
3 Likes
I had a mulberry that did the same thing. I didnāt notice until I had grafted another variety onto one of the branches. Once I grafted the other branch (from a split) started dying back. when I cut the original variety (Worldās Best) back I saw something similar to your image.
2 Likes
@hobilus ā My understanding is that Jerry Lehman was responsible for JT-02, a true F1 interspecies hybrid, with help from a lab in Japan.
.David Laverne produced a bunch of Kaki x hybrid crosses using Rossyanka, including Kassandra.
@clarkinks ā One road to improved American persimmons is hybridization with Asians. Thatās particularly true if we hope to produce a non-astringent American type.
But if you are interested in efforts to breed better American varieties with no Asian influence, note that many of the widely-discussed ābetterā names were found in the wild. Morris Burton is an example. If you want to focus on the best results from subsequent breeding efforts, Iād encourage you to look at varieties produced by Jim Claypool, such as H63A, which is a cross of Morris Burton x Early Golden. Claypool looked at hundreds of crosses.
1 Like
I believe his first name was James.
@jrd51 where are you seeing reference to these 40 odd novel F-1ās? I havenāt spent much time looking, but would be interested to review any information that exists. Or is this just heresay?
1 Like
Oops, that is correct. Iāll fix. Thx.
1 Like
The immediate source is Richardās āList of Hybrid Persimmons in the U.S.ā linked above (I think itās Post #51). Richard gets his information from Cliff Englandās nursery catalogue. It lists hybrids of the DV names Morris Burton, Prok, Keener, and Golden Long ā all with the DK name Hokkaido. FWIW, I think that Richard has accurately reported whatās in the catalogue. I just think heās wrong to accept Englandās label.
3 Likes
@clarkinks ā I tried to attach Claypool Orchard Records. It provides a wealth of information on the crosses he made and evaluated. But the file is too big. PM me an e-mail address and I try to send it.
1 Like
Iāll look into it, since Iām curious. I gather the basics, i.e. growing the embryo in vitro, but Iāve wondered at what stage in particular. I can imagine excising the embryo under sterile conditions and culturing it, but at what point is the embryo maximally viable? Iām sure thereās an element of chance there. Surely itās a roll of the dice in many cases Iād think.
Thatās not something I was aware of, but Iād be glad to know more about it.
1 Like
Here are some Ukrainian hybridsā¦not sure we are allowed to talk about them but interesting.
1 Like
I wonāt tell if you donāt
3 Likes
In pure American persimmons, my favorites have been Lehmanās Delight (100-46}, Valene Beauty (I-94), and Prok. All completely hardy here in Zone 6a. Lehmanās Delight bore 20 persimmons on year 2 to grafting to a 2 inch diameter rootstock. Prok has rather mild flavor, and retained astringency in the early years. Valene Beauty is my firmest and reddest virginiana.
7 Likes
John Gordon told me in an email many years ago when I asked him about the name and origin of Prok that it is kind of an acronym for Persimmon Ralph Krieder. I guess he thought an āoā worked better than an āiā. That was because it was a seedling of Pipher that Ralph discovered in Curro Gordo, IL. Interestingly, Ralph told me that Pipher was actually a grafted tree of some long forgotten variety. They are both large vigorous trees. I have them growing side by side in my orchard. Both have large oblong fruit. If the D. Virginiana sequence gets published, it would be nice to start corroborating and cleaning up the old persimmon lore if further testing is affordable.
6 Likes
Thanks for digging out these old documents. Always cool to see this sort of thing and recall that at one time a 3 ring binder stuffed with random photocopies might have represented a substantial body of knowledge about a topic as relatively obscure as American persimmons.
If your account is true, would that mean that all of the references to George Slate and Geneva, NY are apocryphal, or was the tree in question grafted in Geneva for breeding purposes? I believe the correct spelling is Pieper, no? I know that John Gordon also distributed a variety called SAA Pieper that is well regarded. The SAA stood for something along the lines of āseedling ofā¦ā though I forget now. Might you be confusing this and Prok ? I tried hunting for his old nursery catalog, but canāt find the url. It was a geocities site as I recall. I think someone may have made a mirror of it for reference.
It would be interesting to see how some of the lore shakes out. Stories tend to take on a life of their own, and sometimes facts get a bit glossed over in the process. Not too long ago I accidentally stumbled on a white paper about Japanese mulberry breeding for sericulture and it was apparent to me that the mulberry variety āKokusoā (properly āKokuso #20) came from this program and was bred entirely for its leaves. Every nursery catalog that sells it describes it as having come from Korea. I donāt know who started the rumor, but it seems to have stuck.
2 Likes