I’ve heard good things about it. It looks huge and has a nice red color. Apparently a lot of the stuff coming out of Don Compton’s breeding work is pretty impressive. I wish I new more about him and what he is up to. I understand he’s pretty reserved and keeps to himself. Does anyone know more?
Good questions/points. As far as Pipher and Pieper go, I’m certain they are two different cultivars. Pieper is from Pennsylvania, and Pipher was a rediscovered legacy cultivar found in Illinois. There does appear to have been confusion over the years since they’re names are so similar and people aren’t always the most conscientious about such things. I have a nice blurb on Pieper written by John Gordon somewhere in my library; will try to dig it out when I get home. From what I understand (from emails with John Gordon when he still ran his nursery), SAA Pieper is seedling of Pieper that he grew out. As for George Slate and John Gordon, their efforts were so integrated that I (incorrectly or correctly) pretty much lump them into the same effort as they worked a lot with the same material -even some of the same trees. I have a few decent articles written by George Slate about his persimmons, I’ll post them here when I have a chance to dig them out.
I believe John got Pipher from Ralph, and that John was the one who grew out Prok and Korp. I haven’t tried, but it may be possible to find John’s online catalog through the Wayback Machine archives. Back when I lived in Michigan, I bought a lot of persimmons from him like Prok, Korp, Deerstand, Hess, SAA Pieper, Pieper, NC-10, … Unfortunately, when my workplace shuttered, and I moved to Indiana, the new owner leveled every single persimmon tree in my old persimmon orchard (>60 trees).
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He’s on Facebook and occasionally chimes in on the INFGA Facebook group. He’s got a lot of nice pics of his persimmon work on his page.
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Interesting, thanks for the details. The plot thickens!
As to using archive.org’s waybackmachine, That’s what I was trying to do but it requires knowing the url, which i don’t have on hand. I’m sure somewhere there’s a dead link to it on another ancient webpage. It’s just a matter of finding it. I recall after John Gordon’s passing that someone at NAFEX compiled much of his materials including catalog and various publications. I’m fuzzy on the details though.
Ive never heard anyone talk about Bill Preston… he literally wrote the book on Persimmons. He worked for the USDA and has passed but his persimmon orchard lives on in MD. He worked on over 80 varieties that he got from China, Japan and Korea. So he too was a fruit hunter.
Trees are never sprayed, never fertilized, never watered.
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That book is available for free on archive.org I believe. I have a digital copy sourced there or somewhere.
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U asked about Donald Compton…
A couple of guys on forums and FB have talked about visiting his orchard called Hobo Woods. One guy sells seedlings that Donald gave him which i have called Hobo Woods. Mine are only 2 yrs old so no clue how the fruit will be…supposedly they look like this
https://www.allbiz.com/business/hobo-woods-persimmon-farm-812-723-0099
Hmmm. I clipped this from one of his old emails. There are some old URLs that might help:
John H. Gordon Jr.
1385 Campbell Blvd.
Amherst, NY 14228-1403
(716)691-9371
nuttreegordon@hotmail.com
Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos Catalog as by Mail 2006
Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos Order Form- Plant List 2006
Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos Nursery & Descriptions
Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos NYNGA Hardy English Walnuts
Grower of nut, pawpaw & persimmon trees for Western NY climates
Located on NY Rte. 270, 4 mi. north of Rte. 263,
midway between Buffalo & Lockport
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Here are picks of Prok and Pipher from my trees last year. The one with three is Prok, and the singleton is Pipher.
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I actuallly confused the book you suggested, @krismoriah with the old USDA bulletin about American persimmons, which is also a worthwhile read. The native persimmon : Fletcher, W. F : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
I have not read the book “Where Persimmon Was King”. How good a read is it?
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@parkwaydrive – Great looking fruit.
My apologies if I’ve asked you this before . . . . Are you able to get Prok totally non-astringent? I couldn’t, even if I left the fruit on the tree well into November. FYI, the first ripe fruit came in late Sept. It wasn’t just my taste buds that complained. Persimmon tannins seriously retard intestinal motility, with predictable adverse consequences.
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@jrd51
Here in Wv.
My Prok usually ripen in late August - September. By November they are all gone / done . Must be very soft to be not astringent.
If yours stay on the tree into November, maybe you don’t have the true Prok ?
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That’s always a possibility. I bought it from Stark’s in 2015. My growing season is probably shorter than yours so I’m not surprised it’s at least a couple weeks later.
Currently I’m trying Barbra’s Blush, H63A, Dollywood, and Morris Burton. The first three were grafted two years ago and are now showing flowers, which appear at least 3-4 days from opening. Maybe I’ll get to see how those do.
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@jrd51
My apology, I may have more accumulated heat , ( degree days ?)
Or said another way , you may not have a long enough season to ripen Prok so that it loses all astringency?
I tried to look up / compare the season accumulation of degree days of Bristol Rhode Island compared to Charleston West Virginia with no luck . Should be easy to find , but I could not.
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Oh, my, no apology necessary at all.
For GDD50 in 2022, I calculated 3200 in Bristol RI, 3910 in Charleston WV. So you definitely have more.
If cumulative heat matters, that could be the answer. For me the paradox is that the fruit definitely ripens — mostly in October. I had no trouble getting it orange and soft. And even if I brought indoors, the astringency persisted.
And wasn’t Prok developed someplace like Geneva NY? That can’t be much different from here.
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According to Prok Persimmon Tree - Just Fruits and Exotics.
" Prok Persimmon Tree – Astringent American-Kaki Hybrid
The Prok persimmon tree is a seedling from the Cornell University breeding program, grown out by John Gordon of Amherst NY. One of the most successful variety in zone 5 and 6 due to it’s early ripening qualities. Fruit are very large for an American persimmon 2 1/2 to 3 inches and mostly seedless when grown without a pollinator. Rated as the best tasting American persimmon by many leading fruit enthusiast. Self fertile. Fruit ripens in November."
According to Diospyros virginiana 'Prok' (Prok Common Persimmon) | North Carolina Extension Gardener Plant Toolbox
" Diospyros virginiana ‘Prok’
Common Name(s):
Phonetic Spelling
dee-oh-SPR-os vir-jin-ee-AY-uh
Description
‘Prok’ is a heavy bearing persimmon cultivar in the Ebenaceae family whose parent plant is native to central and eastern United States and has been adaptable to the urban environment. It is beautiful, delicious and easy to grow. This cultivar is recommended for the northern edge of the persimmon growing region as it is cold hardy and early ripening (August - October). It is self-fertile and female trees will produce seedless fruit without a male pollinator. ‘Prok’ is rated as one of the best tasting American persimmons. This variety bears huge crops of sweet, orange, juicy fruit.
‘Prok’ has a nice form and is suitable for landscape use, has a nice fall color, and is a wildlife attractant. It is a cold-hardy tree easily grown in full sun with a pH of 6.0 to 7.0 in moist to well-drained soil. It is also adaptable to many varieties of soil, including poor, dry ones. It is drought tolerant once established.
It has superior ornamental qualities. Dark green foliage is attractive throughout the growing season before turning excellent shades of red in the fall. The orange fruits, which begin to ripen late summer, early fall are larger than most American persimmons at 2 1/2" - 3". Fruits are commonly used in syrups, jellies, ice creams or pies. Persimmon leaves can be used to make teas. The wood is extremely hard and has been used to make golf club heads, billiard cues and shoe lasts. This cultivar will normally grow 35 - 60’ in height. With pruning, trees can be maintained at 15-20’.
It can be grown as an ornamental or fruit tree in the home landscape, or in naturalized areas for wildlife. Thus, it can be placed in many types of gardens: a butterfly, children’s, native, nighttime, pollinator, or rain garden. With spectacular autumn foliage and fruit that extends the harvest late into the fall, they are an excellent addition to an edible landscape. They do produce root suckers. Remove promptly unless a naturalized effect is wanted."
According to
" A grafted female that is self-fruitful. Originated in NY. Prok persimmons produce a rather large 2’’ to 2 1/2’’ fruit from the last week of August through late September. The fruit from Polk does not fully ripen here in Pennsylvania before it falls free from the tree and is better suited for southern states. Prok typically begins bearing fruit 2-3 years after planting. Grows well to -20 F. Hardiness zone 6-8"
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@jrd51
@clarkinks
If someone takes seed from one place to another ,does breeding work on them and they end up somewhere else where someone
Puts a name on them ,……
Where would you say they are from ?
Not really from John Gordon or Cornell.
From the seed source.
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Highly advise reading up more at this site if your in a colder climate like mine (zone 6a). Not that we have been very cold lately. American Persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) – The Fruit Nut
" American Persimmon (Diospyros virginiana)
American persimmons ripen in the fall and dangle from the branches like ornaments long after leaf drop.
CROP DESCRIPTION:
The American persimmon is a semi-wild fruit that is indigenous to eastern North America, with its native range extending from Florida to Connecticut. The fruit is smaller than the common Asian persimmon (D. kaki) which can be found in supermarkets. American persimmons require a long season to ripen and unripe fruits are extremely astringent and unpalatable. Ripe fruits are very sugary sweet and have a soft jelly-like texture with flavors reminiscent of butterscotch and caramel. American persimmons were eaten for hundreds of years by the indigenous people of North America. The trees themselves can grow 50′-75′ but in cultivation are commonly maintained at 15′-30′. Persimmons are low maintenance and don’t have any major pests or diseases in Michigan. The trees generally flower as late as May and are rarely if ever harmed by late spring frosts. They’re dioecious and in most cases require both male and female plants to set fruit. Parthenocarpic and polygamodioecious (bisexual) individuals also exist which pose the potential for self fruitfulness. Polygamodioecious individuals like ‘Szukis’ produce female flowers on male plants; ‘Szukis’ will bear fruit in isolation or can be used as a pollenizer for female varieties. ‘Meader’ is a parthenocarpic female that produces seedless fruit without pollenization; if pollenized ‘Meader’ will bear fruit with seeds. American persimmon trees are low maintenance and don’t have any major pests or diseases in Michigan. The biggest challenge facing persimmon cultivation in Michigan is getting them to fully ripen. Most of the varieties available today have not yet been trialed this far north.
Asian persimmon on right with seedling Americans of varying sizes.
CROP HISTORY & BREEDING POTENTIAL:
In 1880 the first named American persimmon was selected out of the wild in Illinois. This original variety, ‘Early Golden’, would go on to be the female parent for many of the cultivars developed throughout the twentieth century. Elwyn Meader of Rochester, New Hampshire, was interested in American persimmons and developed one supposed self-fruitful cultivar called ‘Meader’. Another one of the more famous American persimmon breeders was the late James Claypool who began his work in the 1970’s. He also worked with Professor J.C. McDaniel from the Unniversity of Illinois whom is responsible for selecting ‘John Rick’ and ‘Florence’ (5). Over the course of 20+ years Claypool evaluated over 2,000 trees and kept extensive orchard records describing the characteristics of each tree in his breeding project. As Claypool’s health declined in the early 1990’s various members of the Indiana Nut Growers Association decided to carry on his work (1); one of those individuals was Jerry Lehman, who has a 60-acre orchard in Terra Haute, IN. He has been working with persimmons there ever since and has a large repository containing some of the most diverse American persimmon genetics in the world. The breeding aims today remain largely the same as Claypool’s original criteria (1):
1.Reduce the long ripening period
2.Improve fruit size
3.Calyx holding to fruit when dropping from the tree
4.Increase the already wonderful flavor
5.Skin tough enough to hold fruit when it strikes ground
6.Better the color of skin or attractiveness
7.Reduce seed numbers
8.Eliminate black spots in fruit flesh
9.Improve pulp color & longevity when frozen
Out of all the above criteria the first point seems to be the most important for extending the range and viability of American persimmons as a crop in the Midwest. Brix testing should also be done to determine peak ripeness; in the case of ‘Prok’ we’ve seen and tasted samples that look ripe, feel ripe, lack any astringency, but taste bland and borderline insipid. Insufficient heat units may inhibit certain cultivars from developing their full sugar content. Another goal is to find and identify more individuals that exhibit self fruitfulness. My primary focus is to plant as many cultivars as possible to trial for the above criteria. The hope is to determine which of the existing cultivars are most likely to succeed under a short season.
CULTIVARS:
My persimmon plantings are all in their adolescence and haven’t begun to bear. However, I am affiliated with a network of individuals around the state who are growing persimmons; many of the varietal images below come from those orchards. Through the Michigan Nut Growers Association we’ve established joint efforts to assess a wide range of cultivars over the next decade. This process will become increasingly sophisticated and systematic in our approach. In 2011/12 I planted ‘Szukis’, ‘Yates’,’Prok’, ‘Ennis Seedless’, ‘Sugar Bear’, and the kaki X virginiana variety, ‘Rosseyanka’. In the spring of 2013 I received several cultivars of scionwood from Jerry Lehman which were grafted onto seedling understock with around an 80% success rate. Those varieties are as follows:
Mohler
L32
Killen
H-118
GL
NC-10
WS8-10
Garreston
J-59
C-100
A-118
These came from a ‘Yates’ seedling tree. Very high quality and good size. Grown by Hank and Nghi Frehtling in Willianston, MI. Photo taken October 6th, 2013
‘Prok’ and ‘Geneva Long’ grown by Hank and Nghi Frehtling in Willianston, MI. Hank noted the warm microclimate where he planted the trees—this may have aided in ripening. Photo taken October 6th, 2013
‘Geneva Long’ cross section. One of John Gordon’s top five recommended varieties. Possibly a virginiana X kaki hybrid.
‘Slate’ and ‘Geneva Pumpkin’ grown by Hank and Nghi Frehtling in Willianston, MI.
‘Prok’ grown by Marc Boone in Ann Arbor, MI. Multiple years we’ve noted this variety for having large and firm fruit (when ripe). Flavor has been very mild in taste tests, borderline bland.
C-100 from the Claypool breeding program grown by Bill Nash of Nash Nurseries in Owosso, MI.
In seedling large populations it is not uncommon to find individuals who sport blue fruit…this coloration is only skin deep and this is NOT the cultivar ‘Blue’; seedling tree grown by Ken Asmus of Oikos Tree Crops.
Visit the Link/Resources page to find nursery sources for persimmon trees. Contact me if you’re growing American persimmons in MI.
REFERENCES:
-
“Story of James Claypool.” http://www.nutgrowers.org/persimmon.htm. N.p., n.d. Web. 22 Feb. 2014.
-
“Michigan Nut Growers Association.” Www.michigannutgrowers.com. N.p., n.d. Web. 22 Feb. 2014.
-
“Persimmon Pudding.” Ed to Growing, Education, A: Dedicatnd Use of Diospyros Virginiana L., the Common, or American Persimmon. N.p., n.d. Web. 22 Feb. 2014.
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“Exotické Rostliny, Zdeněk Černoch, Větřkovice U Vítkova.” Diospyros Virginiana. N.p., n.d. Web. 01 Mar. 2014.
-
Reich, Lee, and Lee Reich. Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden. Portland: Timber, 2004. Print."
I thought there was only one @fruitnut but another is in MI. The information above is his with a link to his website.
"
Contact The Fruit Nut
Write to:
Trevor Newman
8150 Knox Rd
Clarkston, MI
48348
Phone: (248) 535-9419
E-mail: Trevor@thefruitnut.com "
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Persimmons such as geneva long sell on sites like this for 3 scions for $8 FigBid - Online Auctions of Fig Trees, Fig Cuttings & Growing Supplies - Three Scions of Geneva Long Persimmon
