Who's Growing Improved American Persimmons? Suggestions welcome!

General Fruit Growing
#141

They had it mostly right up to that point. I have a very short season for persimmons here and my Prok start dropping in mid-September and peak in mid October. I do have fruit hanging into December some years, and it’s extra tasty by then.

Also, I’ve yet to see a 3” Prok fruit. They’re big, but not THAT big. Actually no pure American is that I’m aware of. If you’ve ever seen one, show us a picture!

Others have noted Prok’s tendency to retain astringency. It’s a puzzler, but my experience is that it gets better with time and possibly is helped by a pollenizer. I think parthenocarpic fruit is just a little bit fiddley by it’s nature. The tree must “know” in some sense that there is no seed. There are hormonal systems at play, and so perhaps it’s the case that the tree needs some time to sort of dial in it’s endocrine response. Most papers about parthenocarpy (and related phenomenon stenospermacarpy) in crops make it out as having no downsides. Perhaps the premium placed on seedless produce biases observers to this view, but not all sources agree:

“One of the key players in gibberellin–auxin crosstalk is an auxin response factor (ARF), SlARF7 , which when mutated causes parthenocarpic fruit development. The mutated fruit display a thick pericarp with large cells having a similar appearance to gibberellin-induced fruit.”

Taken from this article, which summarizes some of the hormones (auxins, gibberellin, etc.) and their roles in fruit set, ripening, dehiscence, etc. For context, the author is talking about seedless tomatoes btw.

How old and large is/was your Prok tree, @jrd51 ? Mine probably bore fruit for 4 or 5 years before I got a nice crop of tasty persimmons. Before that they’d drop prematurely and often not color up well. Last year, the deer were having a field day with one of my Prok trees and I cut whole limbs of semi-ripe fruit off. They ripened well in a bowl, and even better (I thought) left on the branch.

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#142

@hobilus – I planted Prok in 2015. I think it started bearing by 2018. I had big crops in 2019 and 20. In 2021 I top-worked most of it, so it now holds branches of JT-02 (currently blooming), Miss Kim, Barbra’s Blush, H63-A, and Dollywooid, as well as new grafts this year of Morris Burton. But there’s enough Prok remaining to produce a modest crop this year. Maybe it’ll be less astringent this year.

The tree is ~20’ tall but would be 30-40’ without pruning and top-working; the trunk is probably 4" thick.

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#143

Yeah, I’d give it a few more years (if you can) before giving up on it. I was adding to my earlier comments while you replied- see above.

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#144

@hobilus

Keep in mind they are in MI not here. @mamuang has mentioned before our climate is usually 2 weeks ahead of theirs. Kansas can get really cold but it also can get very hot! That hot weather ripens everything ahead of time.

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#145

Yes, but if they’re growing persimmons successfully, I’d venture that my part of Vermont is probably about on par with their part of Michigan.

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#146

@hobilus

Would be interested to know why they said that. The pictures look accurate as well. One other possibility i would not rule out is they are growing them in partial shade. Have a harrow sweet pear that ripens a full 3 weeks after another harrow sweet in my orchard.

#147

Actually was a nursery catalog description from Just Fruit and Exotics, which is based in FL. We can’t expect a nursery catalog to be accurate!

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#148

@hobilus

We will get a lot better data once we are growing all of them. Early golden is a good one here.

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#149

If you want a small compact tree Szukis… is a seedling of Early Golden.

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#150

Yeah. The only cultivated persimmon that I have that has had residual astringency is L-89. For me (south-central Indiana), Prok is pretty variable year to year. No year is terrible, but some years it is too soft and bland for my tastes - tastes like ‘nothing’ but in a pleasant way. It does have good years, though, where it is among the top varieties I have. Early Golden, Ruby, and H-118 have been reliably, good for me here. I like the early ones the best since the fruit is typically much more attractive than the late varieties (not all dry and wrinkly). But to tell you the truth, I like all my persimmons. I keep L-89 because it is, by far, the most ornamental of my persimmons. It’s a gorgeous tree with very large, dark green leaves with with languid, drooping limbs (kind of reminiscent of a Dr. Seuss tree).

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#151

I had Geneva Long for a while, but lost the tree to borer attack. Nothing about it suggested to me that it was a hybrid… just seemed like a larger NC-10, as they both have that elongate ‘acorn’ shape.

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#152

The word “hybrid” has mixed usage in the plant world. For annual plants, “hybrid” often means a cross between two cultivars of the same species – an intraspecies hybrid. For perennials it more often means an interspecies cross – such as Pluot. Overall when the word is used without a prefix it is wise to treat it with suspicion.

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#153

Good write up

"Prairie Sun™ American Persimmon, with beautiful, orange-yellow fruit is not only early ripening, it is also delectably sweet, firm, and delicious. Apparently self-fertile, Prairie Sun ™ bears abundant crops of large seedless fruit in our orchard.

Prairie Sun™ American Persimmon

Prairie Sun™ American Persimmon, with beautiful, orange-yellow fruit is not only early ripening, it is also delectably sweet, firm, and delicious. Apparently self-fertile, Prairie Sun ™ bears abundant crops of large seedless fruit in our orchard.

We are proud to introduce these new and very special varieties to American gardeners. From the invaluable work of the late Jim Claypool, an amateur breeder and American Persimmon enthusiast, the following varieties are delicious examples of the best of this native American fruit.

One of our best native American fruits and hardy to minus 25 degrees F., American Persimmon can be grown in all but the coldest regions of the U.S. Our hard-to-find, grafted varieties produce bountiful crops of delicious, light-orange fruit. American Persimmon fruit is ready to eat when it is soft like a tomato and is great for fresh eating and for making delectable cookies, cakes, and other treats. American Persimmon trees are easy to keep 10-12 ft in height with pruning.

They like full to half day sun and can grow on most soils. Our varieties are partially to fully self-fertile but all will bear heavier crops with a Male tree for pollination. Naturally pest and disease resistant, our American Persimmon varieties can produce 30 lbs. or more of fruit and often begin bearing the 2nd or 3rd year after planting.

Latin Name: Diospyros virginiana
Site and Soil: Persimmons like 1/2 day to full sun and well-drained soil
Rootstock Description: Grafted onto American Persimmon rootstock
Pollination Requirements: Prairie Sun ™ is self-fertile. Plant with our Male Persimmon to ensure good crops.
Hardiness: American Persimmon is hardy to minus 25°F.
Bearing Age: 2-3 years after planting
Size at Maturity: 10-12 ft. in height (with occasional pruning)
Bloom Time: June
Ripening Time: Late September
Yield: 30+ lbs.
Pests & Diseases: With proper care and placement Persimmon trees are not bothered by pests or diseases
USDA Zone: 4
Sunset Western Zone: 3-9, 14-16, 18-23
Sunset Northeast Zone: 31, 32, 34-41
"

https://onegreenworld.com/product-category/fruiting-trees-shrubs/persimmon/american-persimmon/

This thread is a good resource on grafting persimmon that are not patented or trademarked 2023 Persimmon Grafting

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#154

I know the topic is Improved American Persimmons… but i got a lead yesterday on a local tree. One of the old timers down the road from me used to be a well tender and his job was to go to many many old well sites all over the area. He has a decent orchard and there isnt one inch of his yard that doesnt have something growing in it… so i trust him.

He told me yesterday that there is a tree not far from where i live that has persimmons the size of a small apple. I asked for sure that they werent small like the size of most others he made a size with his hands that looked to be 3-4 inches. He said dont eat them until late september or so and they taste like caramel or butterscotch.

The property in question was sold at auction so im going to try to get access by either the new owners or one of the new well tenders that are always working in my area.

I have heard of Yates being a native with large fruits from Ohio… so curious to see this one.

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#155

@krismoriah

That sounds like a new improved version to me!

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#156

So many of these “improved” cultivars are chance seedlings, just like the one you’re describing.

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#157

I have tales of walnut sized ones on other peoples properties but they all said that they died. And those tales are from many years ago. I always ask old timers when i get a chance because in my area they used to coon hunt and folks were more active in the woods back then. Old timers know where 'sang and 'moochers are whereas the young folk dont even know what those words mean let alone know what a persimmon is.

Anyways I learned my lesson on showing interest in things…its best to do it all at once instead of showing interest now then trying to visit again in the fall… folks change their minds and may want monies etc after thinking about it too long. So i will likely go take a peek in late sept to see whats going on.

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#158

You stumped me on that one.

And yeah, I hear you on following up promptly. Strike while the iron is hot as they say.

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#159

you aint from these mountains then…carpetbagger.

Molly ‘Moochers’ is what we call Morel Mushrooms… the act of looking for them is ‘Molly Moochin’.

You probably dont eat slaw on your hot dog either…or eat pepperoni rolls.

Goin Molly Moochin and comin back with some Moochers in your poke…you stop by the store and get a hot dog with slaw,a pepperoni roll, RC cola and a moonpie… thats a very very very good day.

Before WV became a state in 1863 it was Virginia… which the persimmon name was first coined by William Strachey in the mid 1600s as he traveled thru Virginia (could have been WV?) The natives called it pos man. Pos meaning choke/ Man meaning fruit. Chokefruit :crazy_face: which is why it is named D. virginiana.

Crazy how things get their names…specially in these here mountains.

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#160

@hobilus
I’ll confess to ordering and paying for a cultivar before announcing the re-availability to everyone else.

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