yup, thats what it’s meant to look like. the new growth is warty, the buds are extra large and the leaf petiole is also where it attaches. That’s especially noticeable when the leaves drop, the leaf scars are very prominent. A really vigorous shoot of Gerardi might have 6 buds per ft. Usually itd be more like 12
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That first set of photos are from a small 3ft Gerardi. The second are from a large tree that i top worked and even with the amount of growth coming out of that top worked tree the nodes were still pretty close together. The tips of those branches the nodes are very tight still.
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Now that I look at my photo, I don’t see a clear indication of a graft.
A bit pisses now.
I may need to ask someone here who has a bigger Gerardi for scion this winter. Useless to start over completely. I’ll just assume they forgot to graft this one and sold it, so at least (I hope) it’s on the rootstock they would have used anyway.
It does seem apparent that the dwarfting quality of Gerardi is tied to its short internode spacing of the tree itself and not a characteristic of the rootstock, so I should be OK.
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@Shibumi if you want to do a scion exchange or just cover the costs of shipping i can send you some scion this winter.
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Thanks Preston. That’s very kind of you…
I’ll message you in January about it. Whether I have something to offer I’m not sure.
I am going to contact E. L. and send them photos.
This is what I bought from them:
Gerardi mulberry: status is obvious from the above posts.
Issai kiwi: died within 4 days of receipt
Ichi Ki Kei Jiro persimmon. About a 18 inches tall. It’s alive but put on zero new growth once planted.
One note: as far as the kiwi goes, shipping and planting in mid August, especially this summer, probably wasn’t a good idea.
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One last photo here. If there is a graft, there is no noticeable trunk size or texture difference. The only indication there might be a graft is the area isn’t straight.
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@Shibumi and @hobilus and @Preston
I also got two purported Girardis from EL earlier this year. I think they advertised them as being on their own roots from cuttings, so that would explain the lack of a graft. However, I also started to get suspicious that the internode length was too large, so I ordered two more Girardis from Whitman Farms for comparison. (Like @Shibumi , I cannot tolerate a non-dwarf tree in that particular location.)
The following four photos are of the EL Girardi, which was planted at the end of July (and repotted a week ago):
It grew rather vigorously, and I cut half of it away when repotting. It is worth noting, however, that all mulberries grow like gangbusters here.
Now here are five photos of the Whitman Farms Girardi, which was just planted last week:
Curious to hear if there is consensus from the experts as to whether either is genuine.
edit: misplaced photo
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The ones form Lucille (Whitman Farms) look legit to me. She was the source for a Gerardi I’ve been growing for 7 or so years and have sent scion wood to at least a dozen people on this board. Your young trees are growing fast, so may not have quite as chunky stems as a more mature tree, but you can still see the nodes are shorter, the latent buds at each leaf are much fatter, etc.
I’ve grafted and given away a bunch of young trees and grafted a random seedling for a nephew who tasted mine and keeps asking for a tree. I’ll try to take a picture of that later so you can compare young tree to young tree.
My neighbor has a dwarf mulberry from EL that he planted years ago and lost the name of, but maybe they got their Gerardi line mixed up with those others. His is clearly not Gerardi and has a much finer branching twiggy structure. They look like they could easily get to 30 feet, but he chops them back each year. The fruit is relatively small and not nearly as tasty as Gerardi. Also, his took years to fruit, but I expect you’ll get fruit on your little trees from Lucille next year. Gerardi is super precocious, so you’ll know quickly if they are the real deal.
The mention of rooted cuttings for propogation of Gerardi from EL also makes me suspicious, since among the mulberries Gerardi seems to be about the hardest to root. Many of the people I’ve sent scions to have tried to root extras I’ve sent and not one has had success.
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Someone has already offered my Gerardi scion. My plan unless someone convinces me otherwise is to graft it over next spring.
I have no tree to compare to as I’ve never grown or even seem a mulberry tree before.
Here is a shot of the buds on mine.
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As promised in my other post, here is the Gerardi I grafted this spring to a random seedling that popped up in my rain garden.
Here is my Original Gerardi from Whitman Farms.
And here are the dwarf mulberries (definitely not Gerardi) my neighbor got from EL 6 or more years ago. It is clearly more vigorous than my Gerardi and he has topped it several times to keep it from getting too tall.
Just to be clear, EL wasn’t calling this dwarf Gerardi when he bought it (he can’t remember the exact name), but I guess it is possible that along the way they got this confused with Gerardi scions for mistake or something else happened. I don’t know for sure if this is the same as what others here got from EL, but the twiggy look to it is certainly close.
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In my correspondence with E. L. after receiving my tree and some growth, this was his reply.
"It’s the right one. 4 years ago when the propagation company took cuttings from the small grafted plant we sent. Took also a root sprout from the tree we sent. The following year we culled out the rootstock, although some were sold and replaced as we became aware. That’s all in the past now.
Michael"
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I won’t dare call myself “the expert” but the Whitman ‘Gerardi’ looks identical to mine across the board. My ‘Gerardi’ came from USDA/GRIN. The EL ones are definitely different IMO. ‘Gerardi’ is verrrrry hard to root, so it’s quite unlikely theyd be successfully propagating them that way. I have heard people speculate that there is at least one other variety masquerading as ‘Gerardi’’ This has come up particularly around discussions of hardiness, whereby ‘Gerardi’ is variously described as zone 5 (my experience) or as tenuously zone 6 hardy (as others have reported). Ive had mine growing here since 2015 or so.
The fruit is very distinct on ‘Gerardi’ too, fwiw. Its very plump and long- easily 5/8” x 1 1/2” +. And its verrrry precocious as others have said. It often fruits the year you graft it.
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If nothing else I’m at least getting good reviews on the production of Gerardi.
I’ll be happy to graft whatever this is over in the spring.
At least the roots had half a summer to get established.
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I have 2 Gerardi’s from different sources.
Tree n1
(Foliage is getting yellow and dropping as its Autumn now)
Tree n2
Pretty sure they are the real deal
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@BobVance and @hobilus and @DennisD
Here are four photos of a baby Oscar that I just got a few months ago from Whitman Farms:
It definitely has the maple-looking trilobate leaves described by @hobilus although there are a few normal-looking leaves, such as the new leaf just at the top.
Returning back to the Girardis / Gerardis…
I agree that the EL Girardi looks different than the Whitman Farms one, and I definitely trust Lucille. (After multiple attempt from various nurseries to get a Morus nigra, the only genuine ones I ultimately managed to get came from Lucille Whitman). That’s why I decided to buy from her after developing suspicions over the provenance of the EL Girardi.
But I would note that I do think that whatever the EL Girardi is, I think it probably was legitimately grown from a cutting and not just overgrown rootstock because it was precocious: it flowered and fruited almost immediately, within weeks, despite being tiny. Sadly, I got rid of the fruit rather than let it develop to full size (at the time, I thought it was a legit Girardi and wanted those resources to go to growth).
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Regarding maple-looking trilobate leaves i have a few mulberries like that
. Dmor 09
. Turkish shatoot himalayan (which i think its the same as Dmor 09)
. Oscar
. Maple leaf mulberry - DMOR 79
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Five feet high seems to low to begin topping unless you are wanting a really low and near ground spreading growth. If you let it grow up to about 8’ and then top it, and encourage the growth of scaffolds below that level, then you will be able to walk underneath the canopy and pick your fruit without a ladder. Here is a pic of my 20 year old Illinois Everbearing after I just pruned off all the limbs that were weeping down to the ground. I cut them back about 4-5’ off the ground. After leaf fall I will go around and remove overcrowded branches to assure next season the sun can reach most growth. By the end of next growing season, the weeping limbs will be back down to ground level. Each year the pruning is the same so that I have plentiful fruiting growth next season.
Dennis
Kent, wa
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Wow @DennisD that looks awesome.
I’m trying to do something similar with my Silk Hope, but it is so insanely vigorous that I don’t know if things are going to work out. This is a recent pic (the tree is only on its third leaf and was basically a twig when it was planted):
This is after cutting off almost 50% of the top (I left the one upward branch, but plan to remove it as well before spring). I am debating removing the large scaffold limb growing from the bottom because it is almost big enough to be a second leader, but I fear I let it go for too long and now the wound might be too big. On the other hand, this tree seems to almost triple its caliper every growing season so far, so maybe I could get away with it.
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