Yeah, that’s fair. Whether Jiro got better for him with seeds or with age seems unclear to me, but I’m willing to believe that pollination helped. If I can get IKKJ to >20 Brix by pollinating it, I might just do it.
Given Ramv’s experience with Jiro, I don’t see why he wouldn’t try pollinating all his PCNAs before ditching them. And since Fuyu seems to have some PVNA tendencies, I’d especially expect him to try pollinating Fuyu to fight the astringency problems that seem to afflict his “non-astringents.”
p.s. @ramv – I really shouldn’t be talking about you vs asking you directly. You’ve probably got good reasons for the choices you’ve made. I just don’t know what they are.
My flight to warmer climes just got canceled thanks to weather related issues. Now I have some time to hopefully explain my thinking better.
My space is quite limited – I would rather grow a variety of different fruits. If two trees produce similar tasting fruit and are equally productive, one will naturally go. For PCNA fruit, I believe I have found a winner – Jiro. Jiro is super productive and sufficiently tasty for me.
Jiro was only average until this year and it improved dramatically for some reason. (pollination? age?). Now it tastes like it was grown in California and picked at the right time.
I am growing a few others PCNA in pots – Izu, Suruga, and Gil Ya which is probably the same as Izu. Having tasted Izu before, I dont see much difference from Jiro at all. Plus Jiro is vigorous and productive. My neighbor had a 12 year old Izu tree that was smaller than my 6 yo Jiro.
Even so Jiro is not 100% non astringent in my climate every year. This year it was slightly astringent despite pollination. Last year it was not astringent despite no pollination (but far less sweet as well)
But you can buy Jiro at the local asian store for about 49 cents/lb. They are usually quite good – sometimes nearly as sweet as home grown. In California they are so common that they are left outside homes to be taken by passers by.
I think of Jiro as the Brown Turkey of persimmons. Quite decent and well worth growing if they produce heavily for you. Not worth it if you have to grow in a pot and protect during winter. All PCNA persimmons taste about the same to me so they are all “Brown Turkey”.
OTOH PVNA persimmons such as Maru and Coffee Cake have a more unique flavor. Jiro will likely be the main stay for me because of its vigor, size and productivity. But for a more unique flavor – especially if you are growing in pots, I would suggest Maru or Coffee Cake. They are also earlier.
I’m a bit confused about the fact that your Jiro is vigorous… Jiro, Ichi ki kei jiro, Maekawa Jiro… all Jiro clones and mutations are actually all dwarf varieties. It is one of the few persimmon varieties that really make dwarf trees. Are you sure your tree is Jiro? not that it matters much if the fruit is OK to you…
My opinion and experience with PCNA varieties is that so far I have not tasted any PCNA variety that is actually really acceptably sweet to my liking. I find them all rather bland. There is much better quailty within the PCA group and more importantly even better quality within the PVNA group. You will find a much richer flavour and sweetness in variant astringent type persimmons. It must also be said that some PVNA will not loose astringency even with plenty of seeds if the right climate is lacking. Some need a lot of heat hours to turn non astringent (when seeded). But when they are well ripened, the spicy, cinnamon flavor is unlike that of any other type of persimmons.
Regarding PCNA varieties and pollination: In my experience all PCNA varieties will produce non astringent fruit even in climates that aren’t really suitable. But PCNA varieties are naturally less sweet than PCA and PVNA varieties even in perfect climate but that becomes even more obvious when your climate isn’t suitable. They just don’t have any sweetness at all.
In Europe the single most important variety is the PVA type “Rojo Brillante”. It is grown on a massive scale in Spain and exported worldwide. The reason for its succes is the fact that it is a large sized and very clean fruit with little blemishes on the skin. It has a good sweetness and can be stored for a long time. But the most important reason for its succes is the fact that Spain has developed a perfect protocol for astringency removal for this variety using the CO2 method. This method requires a very precise protocol adapted to one specific variety. The result is that the treated persimmons are of much better quality than any PCNA on the market. Hence PCNA varieties are not commercially grown in Spain. The PCNA varieties are just no match for treated PCA or PVA varieties and there would be no market for it… Now…I’m not promoting Rojo Brillante…I’m just illustrating the superior quality of PCA, PVA and PVNA varieties as opposed to PCNA types.
@Mikitani – Thanks, that’s informative. But FWIW, I’d read reports from scientists in Japan stating that PCNAs aren’t grown much in northern Japan because the fruits don’t completely lose astringency in a cool-ish climate. That seems to parallel Rama’s experience.
Not just me but several others have problems getting Jiro to lose astringency in low heat years. Some years there is no problem. (Like 2020 and 2021)
All this only strengthens the case for growing PCA, PVNA instead of PCNA.
Jiro is vigorous here - far faster growing than Nikita’s gift which is a dwarf. But slightly slower than Saijo. More spreading habit rather than upright. Maybe rootstock makes a difference? All west coast trees are typically grown on lotus.
You don’t have any one of the qualities of adequate sweetness, reliable non astringency, or early ripening in the Kaki parent. Yet somehow think that a hybrid will solve ALL these issues while also being cold hardy. Good luck!
I don’t want to heat up the discussion.
thank you for the information.
the PCNA aren’t as sweet, don’t taste as good as others, and aren’t that cold hardy.
But for me it would be nice to have at least one PCNA in the garden/collection. I also like persimmons better when they are more sweet and juicy
I’d agree that people expect too much from F1 hybrids, especially given the recessive trait for non-astringency. That’s why I continue to beat the dead horse – we should back-cross JT-02 with Taishu. Given the cold-hardiness of JT-02, a decent proportion of the offspring should be more cold-hardy than most/all kakis. Given the genetics of non-astringency, something like 5% of the offspring should be NA. Adequate sweetness is TBD and somewhat subjective anyway. Japanese researchers report Taishu at 17 Brix.
If the astringency problem is solved, then early ripening seems less critical. I’ve only eaten one JT-02 but it was picked unripe, then ripened over ~2 weeks on a kitchen window sill. It was nonastringent and delicious without any special treatment. An inherently NA hybrid could in theory be eaten even sooner.
I’ve figured out how to retain 75% kaki at -16 F plus and it’s not an F1. It’s a combination of crosses and then crossing those together and backcrossing, too. I’ll see results from year 6 onto year 18. At year 18 I should have so much genetic material in my landscape it will be overwhelming as a visualization. Acres of trees spaced closely.
The PCNA aspect I’ve included. I will have HIGH #'s of PCNA offspring. That was the first thought tackled.
Ram seems to have found one PCNA that is thriving after many tries. It may well be, but I’m not yet fully convinced that the success is due to the variety. Or that relative performance for a year or two is definitive.
I’m trying a few, and hopefully will get one or two that work well for me like his Jiro does for him.
I have some kaki growing better than others, and I suspect rootstock and soil may be at least as important for mine as variety. I wonder if some of that isn’t variation from seedling rootstock. Plus I’m not sure whether some are on virginiana or lotus.
@ramv I don’t mean to discuss you like you aren’t here. I value your insights and experiences.
Recognize a few that @39thparallel grows in Lawrence. My area is a shade colder than lawrence. We are more of a 5b than a true 6a most of the time. That is changing but we dropped to -7F and -35F windshield once this winter. Nakitas Gift might not be hardy to my property. There is a good chance other hybrids are hardy here. Have the rootstocks growing. Really like early golden better and its hardier but smaller. It is a non hybrid type.
