I know that feeling. Hang in there!!!
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“Королёк” (Korolyok / Korolek, literally meaning “a little king”) is not a brand name, it’s a folk name. Initially, this is the name of a bird (Regulus), but is also used in Russian language for red-fleshed oranges (perhaps, people started using this name for oranges, because Regulus birds have an yellow/orange patch on their head). When PVNA persimmons became available in Russian-speaking areas, the same name got applied to them as well because of a similar color scheme: a dark-colored flesh inside a fruit with an orange skin. Initially, Hyakume was the only PVNA persimmon variety available in the USSR, and it was commonly called “Korolyok”. Later, more PVNA varieties became available there (e.g., Zenji Maru) but folks (sellers and customers alike) continue calling all of them “Korolyok”.
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Note that this is a giant botanical jungle with very tall concrete walls that insulate the hell out of this place at the southern area of The Black Sea region: X-marks the spot.
“But in winter, persimmon growers were in for trouble: a sharp drop in temperature to 27 degrees below zero destroyed the tender part of the plantations. Only the most resistant survived, of which only 6-7 varieties were eastern.”
November 6, 2017
‘A plantation of persimmons and Chinese dates is growing in the Kherson region’
https://ukraine.segodnya.ua/ukraine/hurma-zizifius-i-aziminy-kak-vyrashchivayut-ekzoticheskie-frukty-v-ukraine-1069301.html
“The farm already sells seedlings of its own varieties “Mount Goverla”, “Mount Rogers” and “Mount Roman-Kosh” (the third generation of hybrid persimmon). Two new “family members” have not yet been named: they still need to be studied, described and formalized. And then - for sale.”
So we probably are about right that The Gora Series appearing so far are -8 F hardy given that there’s a tall concrete wall around them when it dipped to -16.6 F (year not stated.)
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So Stan this is basically the equivalent of “here is an orange!” describing every single orange cultivar in a grocery store. That kind of makes sense.
Of Fruit: Weight, height, width
Of: years registered, cultivar origins and along with some of the best information I’ve seen thus far:
INTRODUCTION, BREEDING AND USE OF PERSIMMON SPECIES (DIOSPYROS SPP.) IN UKRAINE
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I pretty much agree with you. But here’s the brief history as I understand it: An observation of occasional early loss of astringency in MB and MB offspring gradually morphed through stages into an assertion that MB shares a non-astringency allele with J-PCNAs. This assertion got incorporated into the mythology of Morris Burton non-astringency. The misunderstand raises false hopes about breeding a non-astringent DV or hybrid using MB.
I started a thread recently attempting (among other things) to solicit more evidence. None appeared. Every respondent with experience with Morris Burton said basically that it needs to be fully red-ripe to lose astringency, and at least one grower complained in an old blog that his ripe fruit falling off the tree was still not non-astringent. It seems to me that the best inference from the collective evidence is that Morris Burton sometimes manages to lose astringency early, but the loss of astringency early (or at all) is not reliable.
Here’s the most relevant thread, conveying some of the history:
And here’s a key excerpt (my emphasis added):
<< The one variety that’s involved in all of the 4 that of been identified as having non-astringent characteristics is Morris Burton. There was a doctor Sekar at UC Davis who was an expert in identifying kaki varieties using electrophoresis. He wrote papers on the subject. In 1998 I had Dr. Sakar do some work for me with the object to identify virginiana/kaki hybrid’s and possible hybrids. As a basis in 1998 I did send him actively growing buds of Morris Burton and other D. virginiana in order that he could establish typical enzyme patterns for virginiana. In his report back to me he stated that Morris Burton appears to share an allele with kaki. I found that interesting and more interesting is that Morris Burton is involved in all of the 4 varieties that were observed to produce what Martha Davis and I call non-astringent fruit. That is some of the fruits could be picked off the tree while still firm with no astringency. >>
I’m not competent to assess the scientific work, but even if it is unimpeachable there is a huge gap between “appears to share an allele with kaki” and “appears to share the non-astringency allele with J-PCNA kakis.” And “some of the fruit” is not all or most of the fruit. Nevertheless, some people made that leap.
My interest in discussing Morris Burton was mainly to get us grounded. I do not believe that MB has the JPCNA allele. As I understand it, DV and DK separated millions of years ago, but the JPCNA mutation is probably only hundreds or thousands of years old. On the other hand, I am willing to believe that MB may be a relatively less astringent DV cultivar.
So my agenda was (1) to re-assess the evidence for early astringency in MB; and (2) to determine whether it is sensible to begin breeding a purely DV non-astringent variety, maybe starting with MB and its offspring.
FWIW, this is the thread that Richard dismissed without further explanation as “not constructive.”
It is not that rare to find a wild DV that has low astringency. I know of 2 local trees even though I have only sampled 20 or 30 trees total. Only one of them has traits good enough to be worth propagating. It makes 2 inch diameter fruit that taste pretty good.
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There’s enough name-similarity in this excerpt I copied from @GrapeNut to put names to the names in the link I posted two replies above.
“The study of the results of the structural features for the pollen of five persimmon cultivars of the Nikita Botanical Gardens selection (Yuzhnaya Krasavitsa, Yaltinskaya, Mechta, Prelestnaya, Zolotistaya)…The use of the analyzed persimmon genotypes as pollinators is not effective due to the low degree of viability of the pollen that they form. The presence of unreduced pollen (giant grains) in the cultivars ‘Yaltinskaya’, ‘Mechta’, ‘Prelestnaya’ and ‘Zolotistaya’ allows them to be used in the breeding process to obtain new polyploidy seedless hybrids”
From
I say name-similarity because I’m using Translate to bounce off the internet like fireworks. I’m also saving things in English and coming back to them later, for-example. As it’s said, “translations are always changing” quoted from memory from @Arhus76
- for my reason(s) lol
- because they do! ‘Translate’ is not “perfect”, lol,
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I see you interested in the Ukrainian selection now. This is a good thing.
I think it is important to remember a few points.
First, Ukraine is a big country. The climatic zone in Ukraine ranges from 8a to 5a.
Here is the map.
The cultivation areas are essentially in zone 7a to 6a.
It follows that the people who really have the most resistant hybrids are in the USA, at Cliff, because the polar vortex has made selection by the cold much more important than elsewhere.
In addition, the cultivation methods are different. It is customary to protect trees in winter in Ukraine, not elsewhere.
Ukrainians are big farmers. But the technique also makes it possible to circumvent the problem of the cold.
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Could you elaborate on how the cultivation is different and the techniques of protection?
I’ve seen (only once) a tree with about 6-8 tires from the ground level up surrounding their yard tree. I thought to myself if the prairie winds here knocked a tire over I could be in trouble. This was inside a fenced-in-yard.
I’ve seen all kinds of stuff from dirt piled up or (?) They “preserve” their garden trees for winter.
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6a for this one
thanks
Diospyros (x) Kujinaja (Costata x Rosseymale) PVNA-type; England’s Orchard and Nursery, McKee KY. Cliff D England
Diospyros (x) Kujinaja (Costata x Rosseymale) PVNA-type; England’s Orchard and Nursery, McKee KY. Cliff D England
D. (x) Kujinaja PVNA-type Right D. (x) Bliznetsnaja PCA-type Left. (2) trees at one location. England’s Orchard and Nursery, McKee KY. Cliff D England
D. (x) Kujinaja PVNA-type Right D. (x) Bliznetsnaja PCA-type Left. (2) trees at one location. England’s Orchard and Nursery, McKee KY. Cliff D England
Crrrrruuuuuunncch!
Diospyros (x) JT-02 PCA-type; England’s Orchard and Nursery, McKee KY. Cliff D England
YouTube: Persimmon Pop (photo captures)
JT-02 mid-Missouri. Zone 6a
Kujinaja PVNA-hybrid after softened/stored:
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Is it available in the U.S.?
not yet sir, yep.
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TREES and Scion wood List 2022 DEC Farms 1, 2 and 3 UPDATE.pdf (1.3 MB)
England’s Latest Update: 2.14.2023
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Diospyros (x) Hunter Dream; England’s Orchard and Nursery, McKee KY. Cliff D England
Diospyros Gwang Yang x Rossey PCNA-type; England’s Orchard and Nursery, McKee KY. Cliff D England
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