If Tony says that JT-02 died at -33F it doesn’t mean that it would survive at -28F. Many factors are at play (rootstock, age, humidity, wind, duration of frost, etc). I think that -22 to -26F is more realistic and is pretty close to Dar Sofiyivky. By the way Dar Sofiyivky is roughly 50% virginiana and 50% kaki.
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The values in the list are computed from the percentages of {D. kaki, D. virginiana, D. unknown} in the parents. Any changes in the current list will be made based on new information about parents – preferably backed by publication or statements of the actual breeder. I post the list in the evening (Vista CA) with the date embedded.
For purposes of the list (the topic of this thread), I am only interested in actual survival temperatures.
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Krymchanka-55 kaki-PVNA to -27 C / -18 F
from:
Very-interesting, but not in anyone’s trees of USA collections that I know. I’ve already talked to Cliff this morning and he doesn’t have this.
EDIT: Krymchanka-55 is full kaki (kaki x kaki)
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How cold hardy is this one?
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it’s a persimmon that withstood -28°C, with damage, but left again. Highly rated.
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I don’t know very much about persimmons. Most of my plant tinkering is with citrus, as it’s very easy for me to get lots of seeds and bud wood locally. Is it possible to create a parthenocarpic variation of a persimmon that makes fruit similar to a texana?
It’d be ok to have a separate thread discussing breeding prospects.
So Prok is a pure DV cold hardy to atleast -35F crossed with 400-5 cold hardy to -33F so far. So it is safe to say -33F. It is another good hybrid male to use to cross for cold hardy hybrids to Z4 and Z5. @Richard
Thanks
Tony
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Yeah, I’m still curious about the source of information re JT-06.
Dax, from the info I found, Krymchanka-55 is not a hybrid, it’s a pure D. kaki. While it was bred at the Nikitski Botanical Garden, all its parents are D. kaki.
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I’ve added a second page for non-hybrid parents, with all the columns of the first page.
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In English, the convention is to capitalize the first letter of each word in a variety name. In Russian and Ukrainian, the convention is to capitalize the first letter of only the first word in a variety name (unless one of the other words is a proper noun, like somebody’s last name, in which case its first letter is also capitalized).
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There were good reasons to cross kaki and virginiana, specifically to move cold tolerance into kaki. Other possibilities include bringing the normal forest tree phenotype of virginiana into a dwarf type fruit producing tree.
Breeding possibilities:
- Bringing better flavor or perhaps just alternative good flavors into a larger fruit form
- Reducing or eliminating astringency on both sides of the hybrid
- Combining genes such that synergies of shape, flavor, and size are achieved
- Improving cold tolerance so that kaki type and size fruit can be produced up to zone 4/5 climates
- Reducing or eliminating seed so that all fruit is seedless
If I were putting together a breeding plan, it looks like the most progress could be from using existing hybrids as a genetic bridge to move traits in both directions between the two species.
In the “I wonder” category, would it be possible to drop persimmon back down from hexaploid to diploid? Would there be any advantage to doing so?
Breeding difficulties include that selection for a single gene trait is a very small numbers game. Between 1 and 3 percent of offspring would carry the trait even in an F1 backcross to a parent that expresses the trait.
@Stan
Another quandary I have is ‘Gora’ vs. ‘Mount’. These are synonyms of course. But the early Ukraine papers (English versions) use ‘Mount’ instead of ‘Gora’ but at the same time use ‘Nikitskaya bordovaya’ instead of ‘Nikita’s gift’. Then for some unknown reason Cliff is using the Ukraine language names. So for alias’ we have the English word for ‘Gora’ and Ukrainian for ‘Nikita’s gift’. 
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Yes, there are always problem with names because differences arise in translations, transcriptions, etc. Additionally, for these persimmon varieties, there are differences between Russian and Ukrainian names and spellings, like Kolhoznitsa vs Kolhospnytsia and Goverla vs Hoverla.
BTW, the name “Nikita’s Gift” was probably invented by somebody in the US (Cliff?). ‘Bordovaya’ (бордовая) translates as ‘Bordeaux-colored’, not as ‘gift’.
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A postulate is made in some publications that a single gene and/or gene on single chromosome is responsible for the astringency trait. This is based on analog PCR counts (not to be confused with PCR tests for presence of a sequence). But a study of high-accuracy long-read genomes demonstrates that PCR counts are not proportional to the actual number of targets (e.g. genes) in chromosomes.
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PCR is a primitive tool at best. There will soon be a need for full genome analysis. This will be very difficult in persimmon given the hexaploid genome.
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We have to be a little careful with the info in Table 1.
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Many of the listings were not bred in Ukraine (e.g., Hachia, Fuiyu, Rojo Brillante, Hiakume). I’m using the spelling given.
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The label “lack of astringency” is applied loosely. For example, Triumf aka Sharon is PCA. It only lacks astringency after CO2.
10, 30-years to understand just the shifting alone is the future. Tony and I and lots of others will have made lots of trees, by-then.
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