As noted above, Kassandra is PCA. Given the female parent (Great Wall, PCA) that’s what we’d expect. But I also know first hand because I have grown, picked and eaten lots of them. And that’s what other growers say.
Also as noted above, more than once, JT-06 doesn’t exist. I guess that would make it PCNA – unaffected by pollination and totally non-astringent. 
This update includes what I gleaned from page 1 of England’s Orchard current orchard list, plus some pointers from Dax and Stan.
Here is page 1. The highlighted trees are those I included, the remainder I believe (until corrected) are not hybrids or will be removed this summer.
England’s Orchard - Persimmon List 2022 UPDATE (Highlighted) page 1.pdf (651.9 KB)
Here is the updated list. Some uncertainties have crept back in due to the unknown nature of “Rossey” and “Rossey Male”.
Please see the last PDF update below.
Tonight’s update includes tips from Stan and Tony, page 2 of England’s Orchard tree list, and a catalog dating back to 2004-5.
England’s Orchard - Persimmon List 2022 UPDATE (Highlighted) page 2.pdf (353.8 KB)
England’s Orchard - fall2004spring2005catalogue.pdf (296.5 KB)
[UPDATE]
For the latest version, please see update below.
Cliff confirmed that Jerry Lehman sent David Lavergne some of the Rossyanka OP seeds and David grew them out. He got a male offspring and called it Rossey. So with this Rossey male he crossed with lots of Kaki and DV to get the majority of the hybrid persimmons that Cliff grew out the seeds at his nursery. David Lavergne passed away due to illness and I am not sure his Rossey male still available. So I felt very lucky that Jerry sent me the scion of 400-5 male offspring Rossyanka OP cold hardy to -33F because this tree also no longer at Jerry Lehman farm since Jerry passed away. I sent the 400-5 male scions to a group of breeders on this Forum to preserve it. I am using this 400-5 the last 5 years to comes up with the new very cold hardy for z4 and z5 .
Tony
Tony – Thanks. Can we clarify the OP? My understanding is that the pollen came from DV. Is that right?
@tonyOmahaz5
So everywhere the label “Rossey” is used for a male in Clifford’s list refers to the same male cultivar from David Lavergne? This is referred to elsewhere as “Rossey 2”, D.hyb. x D.v.
Yes, that is correct.
Tony
Sosnovskaya = PCA
Pamjat Chernieava = PCA
Nikita #4 = PCA
Kasandra = PCA
Journey = PCA
David’s Kandy = PCA
Bozhii Dar = PCA
Yes.
Right. Maybe now Richard will believe me about Kassandra.
Given the crosses, none of which is capable of producing a J-PCNA offspring, there are no J-PCNAs (i.e., 6 J-PCNA alleles). Ditto C-PCNA offspring (i.e., 1 C-PCNA allele).
Similarly, none of the crosses would seem capable of producing a full PVNA offspring (i.e., maybe 4-6 PVNA alleles). But there may be some PVNA genes hidden among the parents, so it’s possible that one or more of the crosses could produce a PVA offspring (i.e., maybe 1-3 PVNA alleles). If Kuji Naja is PV, that’s what happened.
Bottom line: Everything in the list is PCA until proven otherwise.
Wasn’t there some speculation that Zenki Maru was the pollen parent for Kuji Naja?
The way I’m reading this, location 13.5 has 2 Trees:
Kuji Naja,
Twin Naja
– although listed in reverse order.
They are said to be seedlings, and because of “Twin” I’m inferring (perhaps incorrectly) they are from the same parents.
For some reason (I’ve forgotten, perhaps an old catalog) I have parents
Costata D.k. × Rossey D.hybrid
Corrections are welcome!
[UPDATE] - see these descriptions: England's Orchard persimmon descriptions 2004-present
I had the same info as Richard, though I can’t vouch for it’s accuracy.
That’s why I was skeptical. I don’t think it’s possible for Costata x Rossey 2 to produce a PVNA. One possible explanation that I offered is that the tree is mislabeled.
It also seemed suspicious that two siblings differed so dramatically but I get that it happens. My two granddaughters are blond and brunette; my two grandsons are blond and redhead.
Hmmm… maybe I was thinking that I had seen someone suggesting that David Lavergne’s Rossy male actually had Zenji as a parent, which was possibly where the genetics came from for the PVNA part of Kuji. I see u159-2 listed as a parent of Rossy Male, but I’m not sure what that is.
But, I probably shouldn’t have mentioned it, since it is just speculation so is just muddying the waters.
Please read the Legend at the top of the document.
I think you need to think about this differently. Chicken and egg, egg and chicken.
How did PCNA trees begin in nature? They most likely are progeny of PCA trees that had traits arranged in just the right way to express a NA characteristic. I think what you mean is the odds are very small but with enough pulls of the slot machine, sometimes you get lucky.
Keep your mind open to possibilities you might not have thought existed. I think the overarching theme of the large amounts of discussion on persimmon breeding recently is that we really don’t know what we are talking about relating to genetics and can only speculate based on previous experiences of others to infer the path ahead regarding breeding. There is clearly much more to be learned about persimmon genetics than we already know, as with most things in this world.
Also, the trees you have in question were likely known about by a few people other than Cliff more than two years ago, you just didn’t want to believe in the possibility at that time either.
I’d prefer not to continue this conversation on this thread to keep things categorized.
Bingo.
@disc4tw – Of course we can imagine any sort of mutation. But a new mutation that mirrors the old one is a very unlikely event. It is MUCH more likely that a tree was mislabeled. Or that it is merely PVA.
The comments at the bottom reflect a semantic problem. There are no inter-specific PCNA or PVNA hybrids (i.e., Kaki x DV). There are numerous intra-specific hybrids (i.e., Kaki x Kaki).
I have noticed that any attempt to reason with jrd51 results in an unreasonable response. There are several beliefs that he stubbornly hangs onto which increase his difficulty. He is also (understandably) driven by the desire to succeed in 1 cross.
In regard to everyone else here, there are two breeding objectives. Tony is focused on cold-hardiness and season length. Astringency is less of a worry provided the fruit can ripen at the end of his season and lose astringency.
Others members hold out hope for a moderately cold hardy parthenocarpic NA cultivar. Given the existing variability among present-day cultivars there is good reason to believe it is possible. Most individuals here have the healthy expectation that it will take many crosses and seedlings to produce an acceptable result. In mathematical terms it is a stochastic optimization problem that can be completed in polynomial time if a well-designed breeding program is used – not unlike those applied to Citrus and Pawpaw.
Elsewhere in agricultural research there are pragmatists with agricultural objectives – chiefly the Ukrainians. They understand that like other fruit crops there is a need for multiple cultivars to match the needs of different growing regions. They also have the institutional experience that breeding of perennial fruits is a long-term process. Hence any criticism of their efforts to date is misplaced.
Said another way, there is more than one goal and more than one way to succeed.
I would still contend that a lot of seedlings will have to be grown to have a reasonable chance of finding an outstanding new cultivar. Extending your math analogy, the more seedlings grown, the shorter time interval required to find something useful.
One of the quandaries with breeding is that selecting for one trait is always selecting against another trait. Sometimes both are needed. It will be interesting to see how persimmon plays out for combining cold tolerance with large good flavored fruit on productive plants.