@PharmerDrewee
Lavergne’s methodology is well-documented.
Consider Gold Nugget Mandarin.
There are multiple mechanisms involved in seedless fruit. Sometimes it is a nuclear DNA mutation. Sometimes it is a ploidy issue where no compatible pollinators are present. Sometimes it is cytoplasmic as is the case with maize. I suspect all of these will eventually be found in persimmon. Perhaps it is appropriate to keep some of the odd ploidy variants in the database. I don’t know, but if we do, another column is needed.
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I’ve heard of his work but was thinking of other examples.
Fascinating!
It appears all the crosses are between hexaploids.
Clifford England ploidy table.pdf (15.0 KB)
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In this version, the parthenocarpic column has been dropped. If any of these turn out to be caducous I can add back in a column for it.
The formulas for the cross percentages have been finished for all the names and parents I’ve been given here. Tomorrow I’ll have a look at the information C. England sent me.
Questions, corrections, and additions are welcome. Someone warned me about a non-member considering the chart for a publication so I added a sentence about authorship rights.
Please see the last PDF update below.
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@Richard can you edit that Tam Kam is 100% nonastringent Asian persimmon X 400-5 (Rossyanka 50% Asian/50%Dv × OP Dv 100% American}. This should be like around 55 %Asian and 45% American or if you can frigure out the exact % for me. . This is almost as close to JT-02 50% Kaki/50%Dv Josephine 100% DV/ Taishu 100% Kaki
Tony
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I have a question.
If a gibberellin application every 10-days as suggested in one of the articles posted from pharmerdrewee is completed on fruit beginning 10-days after flowering - until such a day (I think I read ugh! 80-days after flowering)… fruit is harvested for seed & thee imperfect seeds are embryo rescued where the only way the very “small amount”/few-seeds that can be kept alive but must meet callous to grow under embryo rescue conditions - to create a tree that can then further be multiplied; a tree with vigor too. These seeds that are imperfect apparently can of J-origin and from callus become PCNA from Gibberellin applications on fruit.
This is the cultivar mainly referenced among the (2) longer articles, Andrew posted:
‘Fukuoka K1 Gou’ (TM Akiou)
It was created from callous of: (Fuyu x Taishu). The pollen they “reduced” via water/hydration and that is something I didn’t compute.
However… it was “related” to the reader that PCNA character can be produced this way.
There was also one other thing that swept me and they said that 'ordinary Taishu pollen not being reduced…) would be difficult to (I believe and I’m asking) create imperfect seeds. Somehow and for some reason the pollen from Taishu was “reduced” to be less potent I believe to help in the creation of nanoploids that would carry PCNA over to these seeds that struggle to do anything except callus & after that is when they decide to grow or it’s to be assumed not.
Cliff England had some sort of similarity occur and the growth from embryo recue was initially 4" in the lab and after some such as 4-years or 3-years, the plant has grown only an additional 3". So… there are problems, I’m to assume, again.
Each cross has 3 percentages: {D. kaki, D. virginiana, D. unknown}.
[CORRECTED]
Tam Kam ~ {100%, 0%, 0%}
400-5 ~ {25%, 25%, 50%}
consequently:
Nebraska #1 ~ {62.5%, 12.5%, 25%}.
Perhaps there is better information for the male parent of 400-5 ?
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My concern (for a few posts) above was if there were instances of mixed ploidy in the parents of the hybrids in our list. But it turns out there were not.
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I believe you’re right that these are two distinct American races.
The great thing for breeding is I can send what I need to the lower states to have grafted and seeds returned since no 60 chromosomes will breed into this stuff.
Jerry Lehman had either it was 1 or 2 of those what I would say are “really oddball” cultivars from the Southern persimmon race (Ennis Seedless type(s)…) he thought they were useless. Anyone would have to agree.
It might be useful for constructing J-PCNA hybrid-types, hopefully, for everyone with a hand in the game. Thanks @PharmerDrewee
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@Barkslip
Consider this map of states where hexaploids and tetraploids occur.
American persimmon ploidy map.pdf (356.4 KB)
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About 5 years ago Jerry Lehman sent this 400-5 male offspring of Rossyanka OP to Dax and I for crossing hybrids. So he told Us 400-5 (row 5 and 400 feet from his house that is how he name his tree) it is Rossyanka female 50%kaki and 50% American that Open pollinating with a male American persimmon (could be Meader, Early Golden, or Claypool male in the F series) Jerry also had a Rossyanka male but in this case it is not the male parent because the 400-5 survived the Polar vortex at -33F while 97% of all my Hybrids died including Rossyanka. Out of 17 four to 5 years JT-02 only 2 resprouted a few inches above the grafted union. So this is why I think the male parent of 400-5 is 100% American persimmon and not a Rossyanka male. I don’t think Cliff has a 400-5 male. JCW just went to Jerry Lehman orchard and the 400-5 is no longer there so I sent Dax scions to spread around the country so We can preserve it. The more the better with the cold hardiness of -33F ís a rare traits.
Tony
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That will bring (in tomorrow’s edition) 400-5 to
25% 75% 0%
and Nebraska #1 to
62.5% 37.5% 0%
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From my notes:
NB-02 (Zima Khurma) is Nikita’s Gift x Taishu.
NB-21 (Sestronka) is Nikita’s Gift x a Ukrainian seedling DV labeled A-21. Ukraine imported a bunch of DV varieties so I don’t think we can do better.
Kassandra, as noted above, is Great Wall (Kaki) x Rossey 2. My understanding is that Rossey 2 is Rosseyanka back-crossed to DV, so 25% Kaki, 75% DV.
Also, my understanding is that Lavergne produced three other crosses similar in genetics to Kassandra – same Hybrid male but different Kaki females. I have no idea what happened to them.
X1: Saijo x Rossey 2
X2: Keener x Rossey 2
X3: Honan Red x Rossey 2
X3 is also named Russian Red.
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I think We still can do a better crosses with known parents and kept solid records for future breeders.
Tony
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@tonyOmahaz5
I’m adding a column for “Origin” right after “U.S. Sources”. For example:
400-5 ~ Jerry Lehman
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I noticed there are multiple Ukrainian repositories with persimmons.
The objects of the research were 15-year-old plants of Diospyros virginiana, which are growing in the Forest-Steppe of Ukraine in M.M. Gryshko National Botanical Garden of NAS of Ukraine (NBG)
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This article has some interesting facts:
Northern America is a region of natural occurrence of persimmon virginiana (Capon
1990). The first introduction of this species to Europe was realized in the 18th century – first to England and subsequently to France, Italy and to southern Ukraine (Rubcov 1974).
RUBCOV, L.I. 1974. Derevja i kustarniki. Kiev : Naukovadumka, 1974. 590 pp.
Research work and most studies of these species were concentrated for several years in the Slovak University of Agriculture in Nitra in close cooperation with the National Botanic Garden of the Ukraine National Academy of Sciences in Kiev (Grygorieva et al. 2009).
GRYGORIEVA et all 2009. Morphometrical analysis of Diospyros lotus. In Acta Horticulturae, 2009, no. 833, pp. 145–150.
Pollen grains of interspecies hybrid Diospyros virginiana L. × D. kaki L. f.
(Photo: Gurnenko 2010)
I.V. Gurnenko, M.M. Hryshka National Botanical Garden, Kyiv.
Grygorieva et al 2010 - Pollen characteristics in some persimmon species.pdf (1.6 MB)
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