List of Mulberries (Morus) cataloged by NCGR with links

General Fruit Growing
#21

fruits are not comparable to the true nigras that i know of. Of course that is not a fair assessment, as true nigras cannot be grown outdoors in canuck conditions, and nigras are regarded by many(understandably) as the best-tasting berries on earth. Our faux nigra’s taste is pretty good for an alba/hybrid. Flavor seems to be enhanced by a bit of water deprivation(grown in a pot if you’re in a moist region)
i have never pollarded mulberry trees, as all the fast-growing albas i have had i have dug up and given away before they reached unmanageable sizes, but pollarding is common practice here due to our long growing seasons. Many pollarded male albas here could add more than 10 feet of growth(and in all directions) in just one year, which is too much work for me.

the specimen i just posted a picture of is not ‘dwarf’ at all, being able to grow 8 feet tall in one season. Thankfully the rubbery stems are thin and very light.

#22

@Richard, if this is the case, it implies that your black beauty is not a cultivar of nigra.

#23

Richard, I’m a little confused. Where are you seeing Black Beauty listed as a nigra hybrid on the ARS-GRIN? DMOR 48 has it identified as Morus nigra.
The only other M.nigra hybrids listed on the ARS-GRIN are Oscars DMOR 26 and Gerardi Dwarf DMOR 16. The Gerardi Dwarf I have microscopically identified by nucleus size as not being a nigra or a nigra hybrid. I have also emailed Gerardi Landscaping Services (the creator of Gerardi Dwarf) to try to get leaf material from them directly.
The Oscars DMOR 26 was developed by Clarke Oscar, who died in 2013, but was donated by Todd Kennedy, associated with “California Rare Fruit Growers”… and I have emailed them also.
But, thank you for your input into my search for the “Holy Grail”. Believe me, I will leave no stone upturned.

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#24

Intraspecies hybridization can occur by artificial means.

#25

For an accurate genome assay I recommend you contract with Beckman Coulter or similar.

#26

does not matter if it is artificial or natural, as inter-species hybridization will not make it a nigra cultivar.

#27

i see now you revised your previous post from inter to intra.
@Livinginawe was pertaining to nigra x alba cross, or nigra cross with other species.

#28

[quote=“Richard, post:25, topic:5525”]
Beckman Coulter
I am not sure why you are saying to contact Beckman Coulter. If it is about doing targeted genetic sequencing, I am hoping to get the UF Botany Department to help me next year. I have looked into doing DNA isolation, DNA amplification, and targeted sequencing. The DNA isolation and amplification can be done on the cheap (~$2000, since I still have access to my lab), but a targeted sequencer starts at around $50,000…So this is where the UF comes in. Sequencing has put Morus into just eight species, and targeted sequencing can differentiate between species and even identify hybrids.

#29

One of their campuses is about 8 miles from here. Part of their business is built upon encyclopedic storage of sequences – which complements their excellence in desequencing methods. They are a “go to” place for plant genetics.

#30

good luck and congrats in advance.
looking forward to your findings. And dont hesitate to pm me if you need more cultivar samples.

same applies if you are planning on delving into jujube dna,

#31

I believe you are correct. However, I wished to alert him that hybrids can occur both intra- and inter- species — the later occurring in natural or artificial (more common commercially) mutation. Of course if the mutation is genetically too great then we may have a new species but in the case of seedlessness it is typically not.

#32

“delving into jujube dna”
Now that would be interesting…But, as, it goes, mulberries take a back-seat to commercial fruit crops…Jujubes aren’t even in the car. It is not how I feel…I love the damn things, but they certainly have gotten the cold shoulder here in the US. By the way…I am leaning more toward the nutrient thing when it comes to the lack of fruit on some of my jujubes. I put down ashes, as you suggested, and also put down rock dust. The trees suddenly seemed to perk up and look more vibrant, and the fruit size this year increased dramatically. I don’t think I put it down early enough though, as my big Li had few small Jujubes near the bottom of the tree, but several very large jujubes near the top of the tree, which bloomed latter. I am still going to try your water restrictive test next year on one four foot Li plant that I have growing well now in a 18 gallon pot. I am not sure of how to do it, so if you have suggestions, I’m all ears.

#33

the genome of jujube(dongzao cv) has been mapped fairly recently, but considering the ~1000 cultivars in china and perhaps a hundred more in korea/japan/soviet bloc, the study of jujus is still wide open.[quote=“Livinginawe, post:32, topic:5525”]
but they certainly have gotten the cold shoulder here in the US
[/quote]

the original jujube thread here at growingfruit is actually one of the most popular among the threads, which,if remember it right, has exceeded 7k hits.

i don’t really remember suggesting that, but i agree, alkaline conditions seem to have a positive effect–since it is the soil condition here by default. Maybe the extra ca/k/mg helps, and/or the hygroscopic and relatively durable properties of most ashes/agri-limes have a desiccating effect which compete with the roots for water, even when water is in abundance.

most of my suggestions are not something i researched on, so no credit whatsoever about basing it on the native growing conditions we already have here :grin:
on top of the alkali soil in the mojave being the default setting, the other condition that our jujus are “resigned” over is that vicious cycle of severe drying in between waterings. If you have a potted specimen, you could wait for the pot to get really light before watering. Incidentally, unless you grow your jujus in a greenhouse with a dehumidifier, it will be impossible to counter the heavy cloud of humidity you have there in florida, so planting them in pots and getting their feet dry offsets the ambient moisture and somehow simulates the dry conditions jujus seem to prefer. Full sun is unanimously considered a must, especially in areas with short growing seasons. You might want to place your potted plants in the middle of your orchard getting the longest period of direct sunlight.

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#34

… in your area.

#35

And whatever worth growing started its’ life from seed!!! Just check Chinese sites: they discovered Dawn Redwood in 1940s, in 2000s America and Europe started to worry that all trees came from seeds of the same tree in 1950s and they need more diverse DNAs, at the same time Chinese already selected at least a dozen varieties of Dawn Redwood: dwarf, weeping, yellow, and etc. Selections made from sowed seeds of course. Absolutely sure, “papa” and “mama” of Illinois Everbearing were just average plants making average babies :slight_smile:

From my experience with cactuses: big mistake to think it will take 5-8 years to find out how “baby” will look like; grafted hybrids start flowering in 6-8 months instead of years. And I suggest to graft Mulberry seedling as soon as possible onto fast-growing variety (such as Morus Alba hybrids - this year I have 5-feet seedling in backyard from absolutely nowhere, less than 1 year old!) - I am going to learn such technique… with cactuses, Myrtillocactus Geometrizans for example, as a rootstock, adult size (3-4 centimetre thick, 30 - 50 cm high) - you can graft on it 3-5 millimetre (!!!) seedling, just few weeks old seedling, and in 6-8 months you can see flowers.

I am originally from Azerbaijan, which was former Persian province, and it seems all white mulberries I’ve seen in Karabah region were grown from cuttings (they tried to introduce silk manufacturing) and all these tree tasted the same and looked the same (for example, I never seen there in Karabah black-fruiting mulberry) - as a proof it was ‘selection’ introduced by humans.
The same with Morus Nigra at Absheron region: the only wild mulberries I’ve seen were just ‘abandoned’ trees from ‘abandoned’ ancient villages; all were planted by humans. I believe this specific region (north of Iran) doesn’t have any wild Morus Nigras. I remember my relatives tried so many times to propagate Morus Nigra, unsuccessfully, the only tree we had in summer cottage was grafted and we were taking huge care of it during first 6-8 years: daily watering, wrapping with plywoods in Winter, and etc. And it was in a place where rarely we have freezing temps in Winter!

P.S. I am not sure about Iran, I never been there; possibly, they have wild mulberries.
Links:
https://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/83_folder/83_articles/83_silk.html

Azerbaijan (population: 6-8 millions people) imported 3.5 millions mulberry
seedlings & 20,000 boxes with silkworms from China in 2018:
https://en.azvision.az/news/97389/azerbaijan-imports-another-batch-of-mulberry-seedlings-from-china.html - it will be disaster! It is 21st century!!! Importing silk warms? From China?!! Ok, China will delegate silk production to Azerbaijan, they are very rich now, they make iPhones!

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#36

Seeds from Asia where wild Morus Nigra grows from seeds like weeds: they can fight with Asian fungi and bacteria. Bring it to North America. Here we have different fungi, different viruses. Seeds will die! Some seeds survive, only those, who can fight with domestic Florida viruses. (perhaps the same seeds which survive in Florida won’t survive in Asia). Nevertheless I still suggest to take extreme precautions and use fungicides, sterilizations, etc. (otherwise all will die)… I was growing American cactuses from seeds in Russia, I know.

P.S. All cuttings and grafts have viruses and other microorganisms in it introduced by those “cuts”; in a best hope it was rootstock from healthy seedling, but we cannot track full history of “selection” (scion). We usually close eyes on such possibility with fruiting trees (peaches, apples, etc.) because we are interested in just fruit and we don’t care if tree will live 30 years or 300 years. For example, we don’t care if rooted cuttings don’t have perfect roots and will never have kind of roots giving them long happy life; seedlings have much better health and potential.

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#37

I disagree. There are many fruit cultivars and hybrids which are unequalled in flavor that you will never grow true-to-type from seed. This is why the recorded history of propagation by cuttings goes back over 6,000 years.

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#38

Some misunderstanding; I agree with you absolutely. I mean “Illinois Everbearing” started from seed; and I also mean that seeds of Illinois Everbearing (if such thing possible) won’t repeat its’ parent. And of course, some cultivars started life as ‘sports’ (and not as ‘seeds’) and who knows, maybe viruses play role here and it is not even “phenotype”

To avoid confusion: I meant new cultivar was born from seed 6,000 years ago

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#39

I just heard Japanese people are very advanced in genetic studies of Mulberry… they say it is possible. Articles are very interesting, I try to research and study (I don’t have formal education in this field):

" Generally, mulberry is a diploid plant with 28 chromosomes (2n=28). However, it is rich in ploidy and a lot of triploid varieties have been found especially among Morus bombysis Koidz. It is said that M. cathayana Hemsl. has tetraploid, pentaploid and hexaploid varieties. Both M. serrata Roxb., indigenous to India, and M. tiliaefolia Makino, originally from Japan and Korea, are known to be hexaploid. M . boninensis Koidz. is a tetraploid being endangered due to cross contamination with M. acidosa Griff. M. nigra L. is dexoploid (2n=308), the largest number of chromosomes among phanerogams."

"In Japan, mulberry breeding started at the government Sericultural Experiment Station in 1916, and two varieties, “Kokuso 13” and “Kokuso 70” were released to farmers in 1922. After that, with the wave of post-war economic recovery planning, three varieties, “Kokuso 20”, “Kokuso 21” and “Kokuso 27” were released in 1949. However, these varieties were not popularized very much, despite their high leaf productivity, because they were rather sensitive to dwarf disease, which causes the most serious growth damage, and of slightly poor quality.

In 1958, a field trial was initiated in four, climatically different, regions (cold, snowy, temperate and warm) and 13 prefecture sericulture experiment stations. In 1971, a dwarf disease resistance test was added to the program. When a selected strain is officially recognized to have excellent characteristics, it is commercially released as a new variety. Up to now, 19 varieties have been released, including “Shinichinose”, “Yukishinogi”, “Minamisakari”, “Shinkenmochi”, “Hayatesakari”, “Aobanezumi”, “Mitsuminami”, and “Senshin”. Such a system is believed to be indispensable to allow the Japan’s breeding network to release a new mulberry variety to farmers."

WOW!!! Over hundred years of experience and we are ignoring it?

http://www.fao.org/ag/aga/agap/frg/mulberry/Papers/HTML/machii2.htm

The author of this report tried to hybridize Morus Nigra from Java (which we Americans call “morus alba”?)
Quote showing the author knows what M. Nigra is: “On the other hand, according to the reports of THOMAS et al. (1942) (cited
from DARLINGTON and WYLIE (1961)), SEKI and OSHIKANE (1960) and TOJYO (1966)
the chromosome number of M. nigra from Persia and Lebanon is 2n=308 (22x) .”
“The chromosome number of M, nigra from Java used in this experiment was
2n = 28 of the diploid in the six clones studied (Fig. 1 and 2).”
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/kontyushigen1930/48/5/48_5_418/_pdf

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Morus nigra mulberry?
#40

“For example, the hearts of two-year-old children contain 85% diploid and 15% tetraploid nuclei, but by 12 years of age the proportions become approximately equal, and adults examined contained 27% diploid, 71% tetraploid and 2% octaploid nuclei (John,1979)”

" Approximately 50-70% of angiosperms, which include many crop plants, have undergone polyploidy during their evolutionary process (Chen et al., 2007)
https://www.academia.edu/39223164/Polyploidy_in_agriculture_With_special_reference_to_mulberry

And Morus / Moraceae are “angiosperms”; so that quote above means Morus Nigra is evolutionary parent of all other Mulberry varieties?

The Families of Angiosperms - Moraceae

And after reading this, I can say breeding new Morus Nigra cultivar IS POSSIBLE

See Japanese quote above about Morus tetraploid, pentaploid, hexaploid, and other varieties, and this one:
" Bridge crossing
Another breeding strategy that utilizes the reproductive superiority of polyploids is bridge crossing. When sexual incompatibilities between two species are due to ploidy levels, transitional crosses can be carried out followed by chromosome doubling to produce fertile bridge hybrids. This method has been used to breed for superior tall fescue grass (F. arundinacea) from Italian ryegrass (2n=2x=14) and tall fescue (2n=6x=42) by using meadow grass (Fescue pratensis) as a bridge species (Fig.5.7) (Acquaah, 2007)[1]. The same principle has been applied in fixing heterozygosity in hybrids by doubling the chromosomes in the superior progeny (Comai, 2005)[19]."

Hurray!!!

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