I love Cox Orange Pippin and its flavour. I don’t love its susceptibility to every disease known to apple. I want an appletree with flavour like Cox but healthy! Is that too much to ask? Surely one of the numerous descendants of Cox Orange has kept the taste but is healthy, no scab, no mildew no canker. Texture is important, but secondary behind the taste.
Below is a list by the national fruit collection of every Cox descendant. Who on this forum has one of these varieties and wants to tell me all about it?
Parents:
Margil x rosemary russet
Half-sibling:
Ribston pippin
Cox is Mother to:
Ingrid Marie
Cox’s Early Export
Saint Everard
Feltham Beauty
Saint Cecilia
Edith Hopwood Kidd’s Orange Red
Celt
Merton Worcester
Fortune
Winston
Woolbrook Pippin
Golden Bounty
Francis (Thorrington)
Channel Beauty
Laxton’s Royalty
Ruby (Thorrington)
Gloucester Cross
Ivette
Carswell’s Orange
Polly Prosser
Rosy Blenheim
Advance
Dalice
Lynn’s Pippin
South Park
Ballard Beauty
Ball’s Pippin
Wardington Seedling
Pioneer (1)
Laxton’s Victory
Laxton’s Favourite
Laxton’s Pearmain
William Crump
Hereford Cross
King George V
Sunset
Anna Boelens
Worcester Cross
Langley Pippin
Sunburn
Carswell’s Honeydew
Merton Pippin
Red Ingrid Marie
Oranje de Sonnaville
Kalco
Sunset Sport Fiesta
Elektra
Prinses Beatrix
Oxford Sunrise
Directeur van de Plassche
Jupiter
Stowell Cox
Winston coloured sport
Leonie de Sonnaville
Kosmonaut
Clopton Red Ellison’s Orange
Cox is Father to:
Prinses Irene
Houblon
Jan Steen
Barry
Lucullus
Dunning
Prinses Marijke
Prince Charles
Freyberg
Acme
Tydeman’s Late Orange
Merton Russet
Rubens
Koningin Juliana
High View Pippin
Newport Cross
Prinses Margriet
Laxton’s Triumph
Chad’s Favourite
Allington Pippin
Epicure
Eden
Renown
Rival
Schweizer Orange
Exquisite
Arthur W. Barnes
Merton Beauty
Merton Prolific
Millicent Barnes
Barnack Orange
Merton Joy
Paroquet
Charles Ross
Merton Charm
Primus
Prins Bernhard
Laxton’s Superb
Clivia
Merton Pearmain
Golden Nugget
Atalanta (Netherlands)
Dukat Spur
Dukat
President Boudewijn
Mimi
Meridian
From SNP-analyses:
Advance Alkmene
Barry
Berna
Blahova reneta
Carswell orange
Céres
Charles ross
Chivers delight
Cleeve
Delectable
Dukat
Ellisons orange
epicure
Fairie queen
fiesta
Fishers fortune
Francis (Thorrington)
Herefordshire russet
Herrings pippin
Holsteiner cox
Honey pippin
Ingrid marie
Ivette
James grieve
Joybells
Jupiter Karmjin de Sonnaville
Kidds orange
Laxton’s Pearmain
Laxton’s rearguard
Laxton’s superb
Laxton’s victory
Mary barnett
Masons pippin
Merton Pearmain
Merton Reinette
Merton Worcester
Merveille du parc
Miel dAcren
Mimi
Nyckelby
Oranjie de sonnaville
Owen thomas
Polly prosser
President boudewjin
Primus
Prince edward
Prinses Beatrix
Prinses irene
Prinses marijke
Redstart
Reinette césar
Rival
Rubens
Saint martin
Schweizer orange
Stowell cox
Sunset
Suntan
Topaz! (Not the scab resistant czech cultivar)
Tydemans late orange
wayside
William peters
Anecdotally: Rubinette
Sooo, who has grown and tasted some of these? I have eaten Rubinette and Kidds Orange and like both, but Rubinette is unhealthy and Kidds Orange has (Edit: some of) the Red Delicious taste, which I don’t particularly like.
Edit: i have also grown and tasted James Grieve, which I like very much, but I still want a more concentrated Cox flavour
Who knows some of the others?
Edit: I have bolded the apples which already have a reply.
May not be the exact answer to your question but have you considered Queen Cox. I understand it to be a sport of COP but with a few better characteristics. I’m planning on grafting some this spring to compare.
I grow Queen Cox, the Cox’s Orange Pippin sport, and it is a strong grower, annual producer, and for me susceptible to cedar apple rust only. The CAR is mild for me, it doesn’t affect growth or fruiting, and is self limited when the heat of summer starts, but I live in a dry environment.
The flavor is outstanding, very intense tart and sweet flavors, I am assuming like the original Cox. I haven’t tried to grow Cox’s Orange, as in the US most who review it report that it is problematic, just as it is for you. Queen cox doesn’t keep, like regular cox, but I get about a month of fresh eating off the tree. It starts out quite sharp, and after a month it mellows quite a bit, but is still delicious.
I grow fiesta and rubinette, and I find them to be quite different apples than Queen cox, much mellower. Rubinette is also susceptible to CAR.
I have Rubinette, Kidd’s, Cox’s & Karmijn de Sonnaville. I like them all, particularly Rubinette. Don’t have any health problems with Rubinette, but the others tend to crack and split; don’t know why. Our arid climate saves us a lot of grief and I think my issues may be nutritional.
Never noticed a RD taste in Kidd’s, but I haven’t had many.
I think I have 7-8 offspring. My favorites are rubinette and KDS
Both are relatively easy to grow compared to cox. No scab really and not much other fungus.
Thank you @roth2000 and @TobyFlenderson for reccomending Queen Cox. CAR is no problem for me (I’m in Europe), but I’m in an wet environment with 1500 mm/ 59 inches precipitation with more precip in the summer, so fungi definitely thrive here. Toby, do you get scab and mildew in your climate?
Concerning Rubinettes and Fiestas taste: a good Rubinette can be amazingly aromatic and intense, but it is more balanced than Cox, it has a honeyed sweetness that Cox lacks. Is that what you mean by mellow? Thanks for the report about Fiesta. Orange pippin writes that they lose taste fast in Storage. Is that your experience?
@marknmt and @ribs1 Thanks for your input. I have never had Karmjin. It is said to be Cox x Jonathan, is the Jonathan taste coming trough? Additionally, is the apple russeted on the whole fruit or only in spots ( I love Russet). I have just found a report from renowned german Pomologist Hans-Joachim Bannier in which he reccomends the Karmjin de Sonnaville Karmijn de Sonnaville. He says that it is robust against scab and canker for him, but somewhat susceptible to mildew. Do you have any problems with mildew in your orchard?
In any case, KdS sounds like a very interesting candidate, thank you so much!
The jonathan taste definitely comes through. It is a very tart apple. Out of every apple I have ever tasted, KDS is the most intense. It is very, very tart but also very complex. KDS really blasts you.
I don’t know Jonathon taste, sad to say - I have a graft that might fruit this year. And I don’t get a great deal of russetting. Never had an issue with scab or mildew or canker, but I guess that’s because of where I live (western Montana). We get less then 13" of precipitation/year, much of it in the form of winter snows.
I agree with @ribs - KdS is intense and complex, and definitely on the tart side! It’s also a generous bearer, which is nice. It’s one of my favorite apples.
Yes, by mellow, I should have said that Fiesta and Rubinette are more balanced apples for me in here in South Dakota in the north central US, where humidity is low.
My scab and mildew pressure here are light, so Queen cox could be problematic in your wet environment. My Alkmene and Karmijn de Sonnaville have been disease free. They have not fruited for me yet, but other contributors here have commented here on the very intense flavors, so those might be good options for you.
I’ve cropped one Ellison’s Orange tree on B9 since 2010. It seems to come off over a three week period from the end of Aug to mid Sep, which makes it one my “early” apples. I’m on the boundary of USDA 5b—6a. Of course, it’s at its best out-of-hand straight off the tree, when it has a decidedly “orange-ish like” flavor. Its texture is best while a little green and deteriorates on the tree and in storage, when it develops a medicinal (anise) overtone. Taste varies from year to year, though. It’s a generally good apple for me, and I like it. I spray for insects, fungus, and squirrels (not working so far), so it’s difficult for me to say how natively resistant the tree is to these things.
My notes: Hard to tell when ripe — not much color change. Green with red stripes. Some have a tan overcast. Riper specimens are cloyingly sweet. Left on shelf, they develop an anise flavor, which is not so pronounced as in Sweet Sixteen.
“Cox Orange X Calville Blanc d’Ete. Medium size, oblong, golden yellow dessert fruit with crimson stripe and a slight flush. Tender, juicy, yellow flesh. Sweet, aromatic flavor. Tends to biennial bearing. First recorded in England in 1904. Introduced in 1911.”
Seed Savers Exchange, Inc. Fruit, Berry and Nut Inventory. Ed. Kent Whealy. 3rd ed. Decorah, IA: Seed Savers Exchange, 2001.
“Ellisons Orange has always been moderately popular as a Cox-style apple which is easier to grow than its disease-prone parent.”
“In a good year, and soon after picking, the aniseed is subdued or absent and some authorities claim Ellisons Orange can be as intense as Cox. In a bad year though, or grown in the wrong conditions, it can be quite unpleasant.”
From your list I have grown and tasted Fortune and Karmijn de Sonnaville and the last one is by far the best for me.
I also have grafts of Oranje de Sonnaville, Lucullus and Leonie de Sonnaville growing, but they haven’t fruited yet. If they fruit this year I’ll report on them.
As a side note, but an import one in my view - I live in the same country and climate in which Piet de Sonnaville selected these varieties amongst all his seedlings. And in my climate and growing conditions all his selections that I had the opportunity to taste are indeed outstanding.
I would recommend trying to find COP crosses that have been selected in your local climate. Or otherwise grow out some seeds.
i grow the following and tasted fruit from them the past year. Keep in mind I’m in europe. So these might differ when grown in america. Also most of my tree’s are relatively young. So taste may change.
-Laxton favorite (early season and large. decent taste although not as strong as most others on the list. Really fragrant and a distinctive shape.)
-rubinnete. (was good)
-Cox orange pipin. (strangely enough almost no scab/disease. Must be my good apple growing climate)
-Karmijn de sonnaville. (quite large and excellent taste)
-Ananas reinette (don’t know if i would classify it as cox style. But it was the most aromatic apple i tasted this year)
-Jonathan. (was good, but would slightly prefer the others of this list. I wouldn’t really call it tart like ribs did. But it’s not a super sweet apple. reasonably balanced imo. I actually ate one yesterday. Was stored inside on fruit bowl and completely shriveled up. but strangely enough not mealy. but it was soft bendable but i would not call it leathery)
-1 or 2 years ago, i was also surprised by sturmer pippin. I let them hang on the tree till end of december and they where a taste explosion, and actually a good tart/sweet balance(way sweeter than i expected).
I have grown here (commercially) Std Cox, Queen Cox, Red Cox, Alkmene, Karmijn, Elstar, Rubinette, Kidds Orange, Ellisons Orange.
As far as a more balanced apple flavor while still maintaining the Cox unique flavor, my experience favors Alkmene and Elstar.
Ellisons Orange is a hard apple to grow for me here anyway, going from under ripe to over ripe in a heartbeat, resulting in an insipid flavor.
Mother nature has sorted this all out for me. I have a terrible Apple Anthracnose problem here and all Cox crosses are prime targets. I have over time removed all Cox apples except ones that showed some hope of survival…So far that has only left me with Karmijn.
If I only had to be left with only one representation of a Cox apple the Karmijn is a good one for that and I have been happy with it. For all practical purposes it is just a larger fruited std Cox.
I keep looking at the Karmijn de Sonnaville BUT from what I been reading it says it prefers a cooler summer area. We get temps in the 90+ and sometimes 100+ days for weeks at times. I’m sort of disappointed and also afraid to waste the space to put one. Has any experienced weeks at hot as this and still gotten good KDS apples?
Are you sure? Here’s a quote from orange Pippin that suggests the opposite
Despite the English Cox ancestry, Karmijn de Sonnaville grows best in warmer drier climates - like Jonathan. It does very well in the northern and central states of the USA, and has the potential for very good flavor.
I also have in my notes Kidd’s orange red, Suncrisp, and suntan doing well in hotter climates compared to other Cox descendants
Maybe the info I have been reading is not correct. I hate to waste a space one a fruit tree that doesn’t do well here. I have had enough of those type apple trees so I am trying to be extra careful as to what I plant.
What I had been reading:
"The Karmijn de Sonnaville apple tree is a Cox Orange Pippin seedling from the Netherlands in late 1940s. The Karmijin de Sonnaville is vigorous, spreading, prone to biennial bearing and not very productive. The fruit has rich, robust flavor with masses of sugar and acidity and crisp juicy flesh. Karmijn de Sonnaville is one of the strongest-flavored apples comparable to Ashmead’s Kernel. Apples red or with red flush and larger than either parent. Fruit are prone to cracking and russeting which can be severe as harvest approaches. Despite these problems, its intense flavor and unusual appearance makes this one of the most beloved or reviled “cox” strains. Flowers are large and beautiful. Grows best in cooler summer areas. "
We know this is true for Cox and it’s sports and many descendants. I’m wondering if that source just applied that to everything related to Cox or they actually have direct evidence for KdS being that way as well
It’s easy for me to say you should grow it and find out but…the fact that they mention the central US on Orange pippin specifically gives me additional hope
Im not sure where your quote is from but in my orchard Karmijn is not a “not very productive” variety. As it turns out, in most wet spring years it will get a lot of overly russeted fruit, some bad enough for cracking so we will thin these off but still end up with a nice crop.
FYI, I do a lot of cider apple sales too and the cider makers, those doing natural ferments, are in love with Karmijn.
I have only a little relevant experience: (1) I planted a small Fiesta a few years ago. It did not grow well, and it was pummeled by CAR. I’m removing it this spring. (2) I planted Jupiter at roughly the same time. It grew well – robust and fruitful. It showed some impact of CAR but powered through it. The fruit was very tasty, one of my favorites last year. A very nice dessert apple. I’m have planted and will plant more of it.
NB: All these are dwarf trees. The initial (oldest) Jupiter fruited within a couple years. As I recall, a decent crop in Year 3. I did not spray specifically for CAR, so I have no idea whether Fiesta would have done better with better spraying. I did spray to reduce other insect and disease problems. I had no big issues other than some CAR on Jupiter.