It sounds like you have had better luck with your county extension agency than I have had. They seem to always refer me to their website which is horrible to navigate, Ugg.
I’ve had good luck with the M-111 rootstocks.
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I’m on a different continent with a different climate. So your experience may vary from mine.
my experiance with MM111 and interstems
But in my nursery bed (planted close together with green groundcover)
If had both MM111 and MM111 interstemmed with 12" M9 and B9 produce fruit 3 years after grafting. (they grew 2 branches 1e year that i bent horizontal, formed spurs 2e year. had 10 ish decent sized fruit 3e year)
From what i read MM111 can be close to full size depending on circumstances. But is way more precocious. So for your whishes it seems like a good choice.
From my experiance you can get MM111 tree’s to produce early. However everything that you do to get them to produce early will take some energy/vigor away from growing permanent scaffolding/larger tree.
From what i remember reading in some trials (i think NC 140). MM111 interstemmed is similar in it’s ability to go without support to M26. M26 can be free-standing. But can fail in extremely windy circumstances.
What tree size/shape do you want when the tree’s mature?
What’s your plan for the tree’s when their mature? Do you want high free standing tree’s? Or more of a pedestrian orchard? And what’s more important to you, not needing ladders? Or not having to get tree support?
In my country the apple production used to be from full sized tree’s that got into proper harvest after roughly 10 years. At the planting of the orchards with full sized rootstocks. The tree’s with full size rootstock where planted at proper spacing. But where interplanted with dwarf tree’s that would produce in the years the full sized tree’s where still maturing. Once the full sized tree’s started shading the dwarfs they got removed.
This might be costly if your buying tree’s. But if grafting yourself it would definitely be a good option.
Soil depth and drainage
32" soil layer seems plenty thick to me. However if the Clay layer is decently water impenetrable you might get a water line higher than 32" if you have wet winters. (or is there enough of a slope where you plant the tree’s for drainage?)
Best way to find out, is to just dig holes where you want to plant tree’s and see if and how high they fill up with water in the winter/spring.
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You can’t do better than to look at all of @Alan’s posts on apple pruning!
My husband had the presence of mind to plant several trees on M111 in 2010 and they have only started to bear in the last four or five years. Admittedly, they were planted in very poor clay soil (exhausted cotton field) with little amendment. However, we are in sunny, hot North Carolina and the trees have made it through our drought-y summers very well.
I have been very impressed with the early bearing of our grafted trees on G11, so it is nice to have the little precocious trees mixed in with the taller ones. I am not touting G11, specifically. We just happen to have that root stock to play around with.
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If you know how to graft you could consider growing one tree instead of 4 dwarfs even if you don’t have much land. I manage huge old apple trees that are an entire orchard on one tree. Sometimes I will put several varieties on one tree and once trees are established grafts bear quickly.
The main benefit of fully dwarfing root stocks for home growers is that they don’t require much pruning and more importantly much pruning skill. Bearing apple trees tend to be extremely productive on any root sock once they come into bearing and data about much greater productivity from certain dwarfing root stocks puzzle me- how do I know that the researchers really know how to prune and train more vigorous root stocks. I cannot imagine trees carrying more fruit than ones I manage and thin, thin, thin.
I suspect that crop production is reduced without some summer pruning on trees with more vegetative vigor. Obviously, excessive shade would reduce overall productivity.
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That is why I want to plant Circassian, Royal Sweet and Vityaz on Dolgo rootstock. Just to have exhibition level exemplar trees to place in parks. And graft a mix of pollinizer buds on them.
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I did check the UW extension website and found a pdf they reccomended certain dwarf rootstocks for backyard and high density plantings for orchards.
Though I may have better luck calling.
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I really do enjoy the look of large freestanding trees but ideally i would like to keep them around the 20 foot range. The ladder part doesnt bother me though in 30 years it might.
I do plan on grafting the trees so I can do a little bit of both (dwarf and m111)
Im glad to to hear positive feedback on my topsoil depth. Im on a 10% slope so water shouldnt stay trapped/ should drain well.
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I will never plant another tree on m111. That’s just me though. I am not great at pruning and I absolutely will not go up ladders anymore. Right now all of my new planting over the past 4 years have been G890
Many others have success with m111 and I commend them, it’s just not for me.
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Agree. I need something with serious fireblight protection here. M111 is not the best for that.
I just planted two G890 trees this last year. The other G series trees I planted I have not been too impressed with. The apple varieties was only available on the G890 so we will see who these two do in the next few years.
I have about 40 trees on G890. None are bearing so far but I have been impressed with the growing habit. Most I have not had to stake and most are well anchored. I have staked a few.
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Good info. I normally always stake my trees for the first 3-4 years until the trunks are thicker and less likely to break at the graft area.
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Mine seem strong at the graft area, but just aren’t anchored well into the ground
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I assume that the yield efficiency data comes from university plantings where some attempt is made at scientific controls. Anyway, the data is fairly consistent from one study or another—the better dwarfing rootstock is more yield efficient overall.
For a hobbyist grower, the main advantage is being able to care for and harvest the tree while standing on terra firma. That’s no small thing.
A g.41 tree certainly meets this criteria, for example. It is almost 3X more yield efficient than M111. An adolescent tree like that can easily crank out 24 pounds of apples. A half-bushel. Most hobbyists would be pleased with that. You don’t have to break your neck trying to prune and to harvest it, which is a big plus.
Landscaping considerations are a very real consideration in that context, but that’s all.
Personally, if I wanted a bigger fruiting tree for landscaping purposes I would get a pear on OH x F 87 or 97, but that’s just me.
Cosmetic concerns are real. But for every other consideration go smaller.
When I mentioned to my wife that I was getting a “dwarf” tree she asked me why I would deliberately buy a tree qualified for the ADA. It was funny, but she’s not the only one.
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That’s a fine suggestion but not a complete picture. Dwarf trees are short-lived, prone to vole damage and zero fun for kid climbing- children are particularly inspired by the quest for well lit, brightly colored fruit. Dwarfs can’t even stand on their own roots. What’s more, when you plant a long-lived tree you are planting a legacy. Plus they cost the same as dwarf trees, so it’s like getting 5 trees for the price of one. Add in longevity and it’s more like 25.
The choice is not a given and depends on what the customer values most. Most of my customers pay me to prune their trees- they tend to be filthy rich, but I have one dear old customer that loves pruning his trees every year with his son. On their land there are a few old apple trees planted by his father a century ago. The rest were from my nursery over the last 30 years of so.
There are good reasons to purchase apples on fully dwarfing rootstocks, but also good reasons not to.
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P.14 {65% of standard} is not all that different then M111{80% of standard}. But in year 5 in the Kentucky portion of the NC-140 trials it was producing 79 pounds of fruit. By 2011 it top semi-dwarfing with an amazing 88lbs/lb/year average. Go figure. No one grows P.14 in the USA:
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Good point. But, B-118 and Antonovka should have been in the trial…then P14 might not have been the top fruiting tree. Then, cost of trees per acre is so much more for the smaller trees…plus the need to stake and irrigate…and all the extra deer or bear damage…
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Those need longer then the trail period to come into good steady production. I do not want to wait 10 years for a crop. Yes if I planted Royal Sweet or Circassian I’d put them on 105% Dolgo so they would become great specimen trees.
But if your merely propagating to spread scions or fruit production; semi-dwarfs around 50% are good.
B-118 is quicker to fruit than M-111.
But apparently not as quick as G890 and certainly not as quick to bear as the 30 and 40% rootstocks such as M9 and G41.
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I have about 100 trees planted on either B118, M111, or G890 and a few others. Personally I find the B118 to bear fruit sooner than the M111. I might get fruit on B118 starting after 3 years depending on the vigor or the tree type but I typically don’t see fruit on the M111 until 6-10 years. I’ll be honest, after just 3 years you won’t have many apples on a B118 but they might start to bear fruit that soon. I have a large deer population where I live so I am typically planting trees that will give me some height to get above the browse line.
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