Seedling virginiana
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I just planted 20 persimmons from Blue Hills Wildlife nursery over the course of the last 3 days. 1-Tin Cup, 1-Deer Luscious, 12-Fulldraw Seedlings, and 6-BH Hoosier Seedlings. They were the nicest persimmons I have ever gotten coming from a nursery. Roots were well preserved, and root and top pruning were obviously done with thought and attention. Very impressed. Ryan is interested in how his varieties do in my climate, and has spoken with me on several occasions, and offered helpful advice. I bored down about 42" to help get their taproots down through our fragipan. Mulched heavily with manure and wood chips. Looking forward to seeing how they do.
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Some great sounding persimmon projects this year! Can’t wait to see the results!
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Just wanted to 2nd this.
They were really nice graftable seedlings and lots of roots for the $7 seedlings I got from Blue Hill.
I actually tried to call them yesterday to see if they had any cancelations and any hidden in stock.
Sure can spend $2-3 on state nurseries and take the chance its graftable. But I was happy to pay $7 for their seedlings (plus they are seedlings from Lehman so if the graft fails, can try and see if get a nice female tree from the good parentage). On a sideote: For pawpaw rootstock, I just placed a 2nd order with Cold Stream Farms. their 1-2ft $2.76 trees were graftable i got last week (although their 1-2ft persimmon rootstock wasn’t graftable [sure its 1-2ft but too thin unless get very fancy with 2 combined-rootstocks grafts, or graft at the root-level… i didn’t think a Z-Graft could support the weight at the top with the difference in size but I may try that as well with my them hehe).
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I grafted a few hybrids and American persimmons into the top branches of my Prok last year. I see a few flowers on my Sosnovskaya graft, so maybe there is hope of a taste this year.
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you missed a key piece here…
so extensive damage at 0 applies to most cultivars, but those that are particularly hardy will have little to no damage and will fruit following a year reaching 0 degrees while others will survive and produce moderate crops after temps reaching -8.
Cold hardy cultivars they list include Aizu Michirazu, Great Wall, Giboshi, Hagakushi, Kyungsun Ban-Si, Lantern, Niu-Nai, Pen, Peiping, Sagoki-si, Sheng, Techumseh, and Yamagaki. several other cultivars are listed as “notable” but were more recently acquired and they had less data on their cold hardiness.
Great wall and Kyungsun Ban-Si are noted as being the most cold hardy of the group with Sheng being the least, but sheng has produced fruit following a winter that reached -5 degrees
Growing zones are general guides and people should look at weather patterns specifically to their locality when choosing fruit trees. Despite that, I don’t think warmer areas of 6b are out of the question for the most cold hardy cultivars on American persimmon rootstock.
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So far I’ve been working on grafting my jiro tree.
Izu and Suruga grafts from last year took and are flowering.
I grafted Saijo earlier last month. It’s still early, but if it takes I may graft Hachiya next if the Saijo is good. Then I would have early, middle and late astringent and non astringent varieties for a nice long season…
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Mike – What did I miss?
Here’s the rest of what I wrote: << As 0 - 5 F is the average winter low temperature in Z7A and half the annual lows would be below the average, many Asian persimmons would be at risk of damage in Z7A. The article does give some suggestions of varieties that are relatively cold hardy. >>
your selected excerpt and explanation seems to suggest that extensive damage occurs whenever temperatures reach zero degrees for all kaki cultivars. that’s not what it says, and there is no absolute 0 degree threshold. suggesting that the cold hardy varieties are relatively cold hard hardy suggests that the article implies they are only cold hardy within the 0 degree threshold.
Also, my earlier post was in direct response to this from you. Please note that there is a less than perfect match between the U Maryland subset of relatively hardy persimmons and the Edible Landscaping collection.
Note in particular that Maryland lists very few non astringent (PCNA) varieties, which is what most new growers prefer to buy. EL lists at least two – Hana Fuyu (a very small tree whose future is yet TBD) and Ichi Ki Kei Jiro. IKKJ has been marketed by Stark’s as hardy to Z6, so we have tons of proof – people who believed that hype – that it will be killed by temps below roughly -5 F. Notably IKKJ is reportedly grown in Maryland but excluded from their hardy list.
From my own experience, I know that IKKJ will can survive roughly -3 to -5 F without much injury. But it suffers severe damage at -7 F. It was -7 F for a brief few hours one night last February, and each one of my three Ichi’s suffered severe damage – all wood >2 years old was killed. I’m sure that more time at -7 F or any significant time at -10 F would have killed the whole tree. This means that IKKJ will survive an AVERAGE Z7A winter but may not survive an especially cold Z7A winter.
I’m not suggesting any data set is perfect, only your summary of the data provided by U of Maryland was misleading and potentially inaccurate.
Well for starters I encouraged people to read the article.
Next, Maryland cited three occasions when there was damage. Each one involved temperatures below 0 F. So in the Maryland planting, there was damage whenever (3 times) temperatures dropped below zero.
Finally and most importantly, I never said anything about “all kaki cultivars.” To the contrary I wrote only that “many Asian persimmons would be at risk of damage in Z7A.” And I noted that “the article does give some suggestions of varieties that are relatively cold hardy.”
it would seem your interpretation of whenever and mine are where we differ. you use the word to describe extensive damage as occurring under certain circumstances multiple times, while I see it as a word to describe it as an absolute i.e. always occurring. therefore when I read it, it sounded as though you were suggesting that damage always (always i.e. all cultivars at every instance) occurs below zero degrees. hence why I felt it was a mischaracterization of the information.
If it makes more sense, it sounds like if I were to say “whenever I go outside, I carry an umbrella” I would interpret that as being I always carry an umbrella when I go outside, and based on your explanation, you would interpret that as me carrying an umbrella most of the time when I go outside.
Similarly there is the use of the word relatively. when reading your initial post I interpreted it to suggest that they were only cold hardy within the 0 degrees as that was the threshold you listed (i.e. relative to 0 degrees). Hence why I thought the summary was misleading.
I’m not here to discredit your own experience, nor your opinions. only that I felt your description of the article was misleading based on how I read it, but it would seem you felt it conveyed none of what I perceived. it would seem our best bet at this point would be to agree to disagree.
This is a stupid discussion, and I will drop it shortly. But I can’t do that quite yet. We can usually agree to disagree, but this isn’t a disagreement about facts or opinions. It’s a disagreement about what I said – the meaning of the words I used. I get defensive when people claim that I said things I didn’t say. I’m nearly as bad when people tell me that I don’t know the meaning of the words I’ve used.
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For starters, you said that I said that ALL Kakis were affected by sub-zero temps. But as I noted, I said no such thing – you made it up. I notice that in your last post, you failed to defend yourself on that item. So you no longer seem to claim that I don’t know what “all” means. I hate to belabor this point but it becomes relevant later.
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Next, you’re misrepresent my use of “whenever.” When I use “whenever” I don’t mean some times or most times, as you suggest. I agree with you totally that “whenever” is an absolute (i.e., always occurring). That’s exactly how I used it. I wrote, “the U Maryland paper . . . reports extensive damage whenever temperatures drop below 0 F.” And that’s accurate: Temperatures dropped below zero three times in Maryland’s study period, and all three times there was extensive damage. I never implied any extrapolation beyond the three occasions that Maryland reports.
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Finally you say you are confused about my use of the word “relatively.” Here’s what I wrote: “The article does give some suggestions of varieties that are relatively cold hardy.” This seems pretty plain English. Nowhere do I imply that they are, using your phrase, “only cold hardy within the 0 degrees” – whatever that means.
Now, I’ve struggled to figure out how you became so confused by such simple language. The Maryland report states, “Only the more winter-hardy varieties have survived with little or no damage and borne fruit following temperatures below 0 F.” I used the phrase “relatively cold hardy” to refer to what Maryland termed “the more winter-hardy varieties.” So where’s the problem?
Your confusion in #3 only makes sense to me if I remember your earlier mistake in #1 – accusing me of stating that ALL kakis are adversely affected by temperatures below zero. If I had made that assertion, then the term “relatively cold hardy” would have been absurd. If ALL kakis reacted the same, then none could be relatively cold hardy, right?
To my amusement, I end up concluding that you misinterpreted my use of “relatively” (#3) because you invented my use of “all” (#1).
OK, now I won’t answer unless you do.
planted in 4 American last year, 2 prok, 2 unknown. one prok is dry and didn’t make it, likely the summer heat did it in. the rest are beginning to bud. planted a Yates(?) American this year and watching it barely start to swell now. the one that didn’t make it came from peaceful valley - whatever the tree side is- but was a very small tree, I got the smaller/cheaper from them and would have been surprised to see it do well.
I’ll only plant American native persimmon here, not interested in pushing zones with these in particular and enjoy the flavor of them anyway.
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you just overlooked it. bolded below
So if you are using “Whenever” as an absolute, then that’s not accurate based on the report, and that’s why I made my initial comment in the first place because it means you are ignoring the sentence in the same paragraph that reads “only more winter hardy varieties have survived with little to no damage and borne fruit following temperatures below zero degrees F, although we have seen moderate fruit crops in a few varieties following -8 degrees F.”
Relative to what? that’s my problem. if you are stating that extensive damage occurs whenever temperatures drop below 0F, then that is the threshold by which you are defining cold hardiness relative to other cultivars and insinuating that cold hardiness in kaki persimmons is only above 0 degrees F, meanwhile the paper specifically asserts that there are cultivars that have a lower threshold for cold hardiness.
@jrd51 @Bigmike1116 I think it’s time to walk away. At this point you’re debating your previous debate points instead of furthering the discussion.
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These will be my last comments in this useless exchange.
If I were to say, “people who are relatively tall,” an average reader would readily understand that I mean relative to other people. So when I write, “varieties that are relatively cold hardy,” you should readily understand that I mean relative to other varieties. This is a 4th grade English lesson.
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agreed. I’ve made my points and I’m done
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