Strange, I have seen some random damage on smaller persimmon branch bark and wasn’t sure what it was. I’ll keep an eye out, but haven’t seen anything doing it yet. What you have is certainly too much to be something like a twig girdler.
I hope someone else knows what might have done it, either hornets of some other culprit.
There’s a couple beetles that are known to do it. Remove and destroy the damaged/fallen twigs I would guess to limit their numbers.
The answer is quite simple. It is not Roman Kosh. I am not surprised, though. England has many trees mislabelled. Another one is “V. Derevyanko” probably mislabelled Dar Sofiyivky and who knows what stands behind Nikita #4 persimmon.
i see seeds in that NB-02 above so curious…
so for a hybrid persimmon to get another new hybrid seeds out of it to plant out (vs seedless):
either one of these needs to pollinate that hybrid’s female flowers:
Is that correct? no other possibilities?
I don’t think you’ve explored all the hybrid or Kaki possibilities. How about:
A male hybrid? I believe that a Rosseyanka male was used by David Lavergne to produce many hybrids such as Kasandra.
A male Kaki? These must exist, though we don’t propagate them.
A male-flowering monoecious Kaki, such as the PCNAs Taishu and Hanagosho or the PVNAs Chocolate or Coffee Cake.
Curious why they call it ‘Rosseyanka Male’. i assume Rosseyanka itself is the female flowers only hybrid… is ‘Rosseyanka Male’ a seedling of Rosseyanka crossed with something else, and that seedling was male? or made in the same generation as Rosseyanka via embryo rescue and that particular embryo was male vs its sibling which ended up becoming Rosseyanka the female?
are there any named pure male named kaki’s popular to use with crosses?
I think when Pasenkov created Rossyanka.
Tony
The ‘Rosseyanka Males’ that Clifford has used are open-pollenated seedlings of Rosseyanka, back-crossed to D. virginiana… So, theoretically 3/4 D.v.-1/4 D.k.
I think they were hybridized by the late David Lavergne, and grown out by Clifford.
David’s Kandy Korn is a D. Lavergne creation, grown out by Clifford… Kuro kaki X RosseyMale(-22F)… so, theoretically, 5/8 D.k-3/8 D.v.
Persimmon tasting at England Orchard 2024 by Tim.
@armyofda12mnkeys Cliff explained Rossyanka male.
So if I understand this properly, David Lavergne let Rosseyanka be open pollenated by some male DVs. The fruit produced seeds, which he grew out. Some of these offspring were male. He then used these males to pollinate various Kakis, including Saijo, Great Wall, Honan Red, Kurogaki, Costata, among others. So I think that means that the resulting hybrids are 50% the named Kaki, 12.5% the unnamed female Kaki used to produce Rosseyanka, and 37.5% various male (or at least male-flowering) DV varieties. Sound right?
I bought a Nikita’s gift, Great Wall and Morris burton from chestnut hill this spring that had fruit on them. Because of the imminent freeze I picked them and brought them in. The nikita is in the middle. Do they all begin to turn soft when fully ripe?
Technically I would say that they begin to turn soft before they are fully ripe. Gradually they get softer as they ripen. The fully ripe fruit can be quite soft.
How soft the fruit feels seems to depend on the thickness of the skin. The American variety Morris Burton, which has a thin skin, should feel quite soft. The Kaki variety Great Wall and the hybrid variety Nikita’s Gift have thicker skin, so the exterior can feel soft-ish when the inside is very soft and fully ripe. For these varieties, you might try gently tugging on the calyx. If it separate easily, then the inside is soft.
My little potted Bohzy Dar has produced 2 persimmons. While I know I should have cut them off, I wanted to taste the variety so I let it hold the fruit. I harvested the first one today which had softened on the tree in the safety of my screened in porch.
The fruit was quite small (30 grams), which I attribute to the tiny tree, and I hope they’ll get bigger as the tree grows, but I also know this is one of the smaller hybrids. Taste wise it is a nice mix of Kaki and Virginiana. I believe Harbin said the tree tends to be small, so that is a plus for my limited space, but based on taste alone I probably wouldn’t choose to give this one a place in my limited yard since I think there are other hybrids with equal or better flavor and larger fruit. Although taste certainly changes year to year I’ve found and it may be an entirely different taste if grown into a good sized tree out in the yard.
It had 3 small seeds, which I expect is from the male Virginianas that must be nearby since my Prok and 100-46 always have seeds. Although it is supposed to have male flowers I didn’t see any, but I feel like I read somewhere that it also has some flowers that are both male and female, so perhaps that was the case?
When I first saw the size of the fruit I thought maybe I had gotten some random American scion wood instead of the real Bohzy Dar, but based on taste and the fact that the calyx doesn’t pull away easily when ripe makes me more confident it is the correct type. Anyone else have any Bohzy Dar ripening I can compare to?
kinda interesting i left a bunch of american persimmon seeds in a Olly Gummy container (i don’t think super airtight) over last winter with moist pine needles, and got all of them out to plant out in the spring (which most of those died in my Urea fertilizer poisoning incident sadly). Anyway I checked last week to add new persimmon seeds to the same Olly container, and over the whole summer 1 seed was accidentally left in there, under an area on the ground where didnt get any direct sunlight (had a large pot directly over it). and I had a persimmon seedling still in there with green shoots (about 8" long with feeder roots). Survived the whole spring+summer+now fall with barely any direct sunlight and hardly any fresh air and no nutrition (surprised it didn’t mold over in there).
You should give that resilient seedling a chance of life and grow it out.
Tony
The first and only 100-46 and one of the last of the season of my Proks.
I feel like Prok gets a lot of flak here and other places for not being very flavorful and a few have had issues with it not losing astringency. I wonder if there is more than one version floating around under this name or if this variety is just more prone to be impacted by local conditions.
For me Prok is basically as flavorful as others I’ve had like this 100-46, with Prok actually having a hint of brown sugar/butterscotch in the flavor that I don’t find in 100-46. 100-46 is great as well and is a bit juicier and has a bit more of the apricot or citrus taste. As others have mentioned in the England’s Orchard thread, there isn’t a huge difference in taste to me, but it is there. They are both nice big fruit (about 60 grams average) and have a lot of pulp and relatively few seeds.
My 100-46 had sent up a replacement leader last year that was stronger than the initial leader, so I cut it back to that new growth this year which I know limited the production. There were some other fruit, but squirrels stole them. Next year I expect a much bigger haul so I’ll compare them again.
For me, I think I’ll ultimately prefer 100-46 just because I expect it will be more productive and tends to hold onto its fruit better and Prok is trying to be a bigger tree than I would like in the space I planted it and has dropped quite a few fruit the last two years. But both are definitely winners.
What are some American varieties that do not have EG crossed in them?
Mohler
Yates
?
?
Pipher? Meader is a descendant of Early Golden, via Garreton I believe. Is Prok E.G. free?
Not sure. I was thinking it was a seedling of EG. I’m trying to graft a few varieties that don’t have EG in them, but I can’t hardly find any.
