Americans (most likely 60C southern) grow well here.
One I grew from Rich Tooie seed grew 42 inches year 1.
I grafted Kasandra to it at the start of season 2 and it made 9 ft by the end of season 2.
I pruned it for height at the start of season 3 (early last spring) and it has nice scaffolds now and is 12 ft tall.
The wild root shoots that sprout up in my fields each spring grow 4 to 5 ft in one season.
I think American persimmons grow best with heat.
TNHunter
That seems to be my experience. Aside from watering and nitrogen being well supplied.
The interesting thing is in many cases it is the EXACT same rootstock. i.e. kaki trees grafted onto suckers from original rootstock that I got from Cliff England grew far faster than the tree I got from him.
FWIW, American persimmons are not slow growing here.
– I bought a “Prok” on DV from Stark’s in 2015. Within a few years I was struggling to keep it under 20’. In contrast, I planted three IKKJs the same year; it’s not been too difficult to keep them at ~15-17’.
In 2021 I began top-working the “Prok.” In 2022, I added the three American varieties – Barbra’s Blush, H63A, Dollywood. New grafts grew 3-6’ in the first year, 6-12’ in the second year. All three varieties fruited in the second year. I grafted Morris Burton in 2023 and H-118 in 2024 with similar growth. MB did not, however, fruit in the second year.
– I also grafted stand-alone trees of Barbra’s Blush, H-63A, and Dollywood in 2022 – two of each. Trees that I planted in the ground in 2023 are now ~6-7’ tall. Trees that I planted in the ground in 2024 are ~5’ tall.
For comparison, I also grafted a stand-alone JT-02 in 2021, planting it in the ground in 2022. It is roughly the same size as the Americans despite being 1 year older. So the hybrid with PCNA ancestry is growing more slowly, like IKKJ. I also bought Kasandra in 2017. It quickly grew to ~20’ but with moderate pruning I have managed to keep it that size. It seems to be content ending up smaller than the Prok, a bit larger than the IKKJ.
Finally, I grafted Saijo and Sheng in 2022, planting both in the ground in 2023. Both are now roughly 1/3 larger than the Americans, despite being the same age. So these particular PCA Kakis seem a bit more vigorous.
A sucker is established and you are always going to get better growth out of an established rootstock.
Better growth on a graft on a sucker than the original tree? It doesnt add up.
Yes it does. The original tree had to take time to get established in it’s new spot. That time usually equates to slow growth. The sucker is already established so it didn’t have to waste that time.
I’m confused.
I plant a tree in ground. The roots establish themselves well enough that they produce suckers. Meanwhile the tree grows but slowly. I decide to chop one of the suckers down and graft a scion to it. The scion takes off and outgrows the original tree.
This is normal?
Maybe not normal to outsize the original, but yes. Example: When you change the variety of an older tree you get massive growth on the scion. That growth is usually far more than what the original would have grown. Same situation applies here. It’s spitting up growth because it’s established rootstock, but as it get’s bigger it will slow down. Also, if they are two different varieties that may play a part in the growth speed.
My trees are younger than yours and I’ve noticed something similar about American persimmons. My hybrids are the most vigorous.
@ramv @SteadyStan – Can you (and others) identify the specific varieties? I’ve grown the hybrids Kasandra and JT-02 for a few years; Kasandra may be faster growing than my Americans but JT-02 is not. Also, Kasandra seems to max out at ~20’ but Prok (American) just reaches for the sky. And among the Asians, after 9 years my IKKJs are still semi-dwarf size (i.e., maybe 15-17’ tall); but after 2-3 years my Saijo and Sheng are growing fast and nearly as large. Bottom line, I don’t think we can generalize about the size of Asians or Hybrids. I’m not sure about Americans but I know some of them get really big.
That’s a fair point. My Americans are Meader, Szukis, and H118. They haven’t grown much since I grafted them 2 years ago. In comparison, JT02, Kassandra and other hybrids have put on a lot of growth. There could be other factors though, so I’m going to let them establish and grow for a few years before I can really comment about their vigor.
Szukis has had the most growth out of the Americans. It put out a lot of flowers this spring and ripened one tiny fruit.
@jrd51, I have Morris Burton, Elmo, Prok,h118 and h63a. All are extremely slow growers.
Hybrids - Nikita’s gift, Kasandra, unknown, chuchupaka, jt02 and a few others grafted last year. They grow well. Nikita’s gift is a bit slower than others. Chuchupaka is the fastest.
I need to fertilize all of them heavily next spring.
Here in southern middle TN… JT02 grafted to one of my wild DV rootstocks (a 1 year growth root shoot)… one shoot from a bud on the scion… grew right at 10 ft the first season.
Prok grafted to the same type of wild dv rootstock had leaves a foot long and reached 8 ft the first season.
TNHunter
You people are coming up with some great stuff! It seems to me that since American persimmons are from the SE, they are used to that climate evolutionarily.(not a word?) My US persimmons, Garretson, Yates, H-118, Campbells’ NC 1(now removed), and Szukis, have all grown slowly. Mostly painfully slowly. I haven’t grown with fertilizer. It makes sense that they would grow faster in the East, with humid growing seasons and heat all night. Some of the reports of fast growing, hugely tall persimmons are the 60s growing in the Mississippi delta. Tons of heat, humidity and rain during the growing season and all night. All of the commercially available varieties are 90s.
Here in the PNW, it cools down quickly at night, and it normally doesn’t even get as hot or as humid during the day. Comfortable for people, but not optimal for persimmon growth. Very little rain in the summer and very low humidity in the summer. The one strategy I will use from you guys is adding fertilizer, urea in my case. I have a convenient source. I have already biocharred my US persimmons, because it improves their flavor and production. They aren’t used to the nutrients being washed away in the winter with constant drizzle. One upside for us is that we can probably add more nitrogen year round because, at least in the PNWet, it rarely gets very cold. These trees have no problems dealing with our common 22F low winters. Dieback is probably more limited than similar latitudes back East. Portland is in between 45 and 46 degrees N.
In additon, I usually grow permaculture style, so it looks like a forest. My trees are more crowded than probably most orchardists’ are. I cut back my extremely vigorous Asian plum trees to make sure my Garretson and Yates are getting more sun. That should help.
Hopefully, they’ll grow more quickly now.
John S
PDX OR
I’ve assumed it is genetics. Your post breaks that hypothesis.
I’m looking forward to your report on how the hybrids do. I’m getting H63A on your recommendation.
It is genetics. Named Americans are slow growing in the PNW. I suspect the wild varieties grow fast as they are rootstock.
Sorry, I mean rootstock genetics. In response to your observation that suckers from the same rootstock are inconsistent. Maybe I misread the post.
