From a genetic perspective, only the seed is directly impacted by the pollen which fertilizes the ovule. However, “xenia” is the word which means pollen effect on structures other than the seed. Look it up.
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Claypool grew seedings, looking for improved varieties. When he lists a male, it’s the pollen donor for a variety. For example, he lists H63A as Morris Burton (F) x Early Golden (M). Early Golden is the male / father / pollen donor for H63A.
Note that the seedling H63A is parthenocarpic. It does not need to be pollinated. If unpollinated, it produces perfectly good seedless fruit – I know, I grow it. In fact, the vast majority of named American varieties are parthenocarpic.
Note also that Claypool had thousands of seedling trees, no doubt producing hundreds of thousands of fruits. There is no way he could have controlled whatever pollination did occur in the production of those fruits. Yes, he controlled pollination to produce specific crosses, which produced the seeds that produced his new seedling trees; but no, he did not control pollination to produce individual pieces of fruit.
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This is good information. I probably should have taken more science classes in college.
However, when Szukis died, the amount of fruit I got without male pollination just plummeted. I didn’t get zero fruit, just a lot less.
John S
PDX OR
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Yeah, I don’t mean to imply that you’re not seeing what you’re seeing. I’ve heard reports that some varieties tend to drop fruit if not pollinated. But I’ve read that it’s more the exception than the rule, and I just haven’t seen it myself in the 3 names that I’ve fruited – H63A, Barbra’s Blush, Dollywood. But I’d like to know more about where it happens. So I’m curious – what other varieties do you grow?
p.s. Both Szukis and F-100 are good choices for breeding new varieties. Maybe you could try growing out and fruiting some of the seeds that are produced.
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I appreciate you all explaining this process. I didn’t get that part of the genetics, but I think I do now.
I also grow Yates, which hasn’t fruited yet, Garretson, which has, and H-118, which has.
I also have grown many seedlings, which would be able to use the benefit of the Szukis male contribution. It will be interesting to see when these seedlings fruit, if they have good quality fruit.
John S
PDX OR
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I have a Persimmon question not deserving a whole thread. I am in Zone 4 far enough outside Minneapolis. I can find at least 2 Wisconsin dealers of American Persimmon seedlings germinated in zone 4. However, they come without the sex being known. I am under the impression that any scion of a named self-fruiting variety can be grafted onto any sex of persimmon seedling. However since there are zero persimmons in my neighborhood at all – probably not for miles – I don’t have any male persimmons nearby. If males had adverse effects I could choose to keep it that way.
I have already pre-ordered a self-fruiting grafted Meader (female) persimmon. I also plan to make an (up to) 8 cultivar multigraft following in the footsteps of our esteemed colleague from Omaha.
My neighbor wants to remove a tree on the property line but doesn’t want fruit that close to the house because it attracts deer. I could also potentially put a male persimmon there and leave it ungrafted.
Question 1: If I were to allow a male persimmon to flower, would it increase the yields of my Meader and later my multigraft scions like Geneva Long, Garretson, Claypool H-118 Early Jewel aka Prairie Star, etc.?
Question 2: Would a male cause the self-fruiting scions to start bearing seeds in their fruit when they are known to be self-fruiting scions?
Question 3: Would grafting self-fruiting female scions to a male persimmon that later sprouts additional male flowering branches lead to the same changes in yield or changes in seed-contents of fruit?
Edit: I tried to replace the words to be “self-fruiting” instead of “self-fertile”.
You don’t want the male flowers. Seedless fruit is better with americans. Cut off any branches that may spring up below the graft. Some varieties are known to throw random male flowers so you may still see some occasional seeds.
They grow wild here, so I can only dream of seedless fruit.
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I agree with Robert.
Q1: Maybe yes, marginally. But the typical American tree will produce more than enough fruit without pollination.
Q2: Yes. But you don’t want seeded fruit.
Q3: Yes. But you don’t want male flowers. Many of us have female named varieties grafted to male seedling rootstock. We remove growth from the rootstock. We also remove any root suckers.
BTW, “self fertile” means that it makes viable seeds without pollination. The term you want is “parthenocarpic” which means that it makes seedless fruit without pollination.
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Mamuang,
What about Saijo, do you think Saijo would make good hoshigaki?
I have one in ground and was going to attempt hoshigaki when it fruits someday.
I was thinking they would be closer to bite sized and would dry faster.
Saijo is NOT bite size. Fruits I’ve seen could easily weigh 1/2 pound or more. Also, my lifetime experience with growing fruits and vegetables is to grow a variety specifically noted for the use intended. If I want coleslaw, don’t grow kale. If I want collard greens, don’t grow heading cabbage. Same rationale, ask yourself what is the best persimmon for making hoshigaki? Which one is noted for and grown specifically for making hoshigaki?
Someone is using Saijo for hoshigaki:
It looks delicious to me but I am guessing sulphur was used? Dried fruit color too pretty.
I am glad to hear Saijo can get big, all I have seen are pictures and the fruit looks small in hands to me.
I’m so sorry to hear about your saijo fruit, but maybe they will improve in time?
I was happy to hear you like Nikita‘s gift.
Those are the two that I have, Nikita‘s gift and Saijo.
I have no idea what I will think of them if I ever get fruit, but I hope yours just keeps getting better.
Someone on here said they made dried persimmon with blander fruit and they were wonderful and better than the homegrown fruits of the same variety because the one that tasted better fresh made the dried fruit too sweet so maybe the saijo flavor will taste better dried?
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Hoshigaki literally translates to “dried persimmon”.
That being said, I believe Hoshigaki was associated with a traditional technique and usually used the Hachiya persimmon.
I intend to try drying persimmon fruit when I get some persimmons but I might sun dry on racks instead of hanging.
If you try drying some American persimmon, please do let us know how they come out.
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Is anyone else growing American persimmons in the PNW?
I’ve heard that American persimmons are vigorous and fast growing. But mine are all dwarfed and slow growing. Hybrids are much faster and Asians faster still.
Is mine an isolated case?
I was under the impression that American Persimmons are slow growing: Out My Backdoor: Persimmon: the Forgotten Wildlife Food Plant | Department Of Natural Resources Division.
“The common persimmon is rarely grown as a food or ornamental plant. One reason for is that it is extremely slow growing. It takes four to eight years for a tree to bloom for the first time. Then the tree often won’t begin producing fruit for another three years.”
You know I have H118. JohnS grows some in Portland too, and I know at least one other person.
My H118 isn’t super vigorous, but if I give it nitrogen it is happy to grow 2 feet or more a season.
My Saijo is more vigorous than any of the other persimmons I have.
I suspect my rootstocks and growing conditions play a big part in the relative vigor of my trees.
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I really need to feed my persimmons nitrogen. That’s the only fruit tree I’ve been afraid to feed.
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Here on the east coast americans are random. Some of mine grow fairly quick, while I have others that have not even put on a foot in two years. Maybe the rootstock?
I have a variety of rootstock - all Virginiana. I use the same rootstock for everything.
Same with mine. Some just seem to settle in and take off better than others.
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