Working with another individual here I am considering a scion wood trade Apples for Persimmons.
I would be the one getting the persimmon scion wood and the two varieties mentioned above are being offered. Problem is I know nothing about these two persimmon varieties and can’t find a lot of details about them online.
Here is what I have found…
Caroa de rei - the main local variety in Portugal, Astringent
Rojo brillante - Origin Spain, PVA Group
I trust that these are good persimmons and have seen pictures of them posted here and online. They do look good.
But what I need to know is this… Can I graft scionwood of these varieties onto my Wild American DV rootstock ? Is that known to be possible ? or possibly next to impossible ?
I have plenty of Wild American DV rootstock here and would love to try these (over seas varieties) if there is a good chance of grafting success ?
I have read here on this forum… that it seems to be next to impossible to graft asian/kaki persimmon onto DV rootstock. They just fail to take.
Where American/Hybrids graft well onto DV.
So that is my question… does anyone here know if these two varieties from Portugal and Spain will graft (with a decent success rate) onto wild American DV rootstock ?
Off course you can. Graft on any American persimmon understock large or small as you wish. I bought Rojo Brillante persimmon fruits from Walmart in the past that treated with CO2 and they tasted great crunchy.
There are two (that I know) known exceptions for persimmon grafting:
Fuyu (a kaki) doesn’t graft to Diospyros virginiana
And lastly:
Diospyros lotus has graft incompatibility with most all PVA kaki persimmons such as Rojo Brillante and the other 10’s of dozens of PVA available as cultivars to be grafted.
Louis - that last Persimmon pic i have looked at that several times this year, Looks so Yummy !
I would love to try one of those… or a few hundred
Thanks for the help all… I found a bit more info on Roju Brilliante online this morning.
This article says it is in the PCA group… not PVA…
Notice that second image… says High grafting compatibility on D.L and D.V.
It looks like Spain and Portugal both have a somewhat milder climate than my Southern Middle TN Location Zone 7A.
I looked up the Lowest 2 Temps in Jan and Feb the last 5 years at my location.
Jan – Feb
2022 14 16 20 21
2021 22 25 11 13
2020 22 25 18 22
2019 18 16 22 26
2018 05 06 19 24
2017 08 26 20 24
Do you know if those two varieties are able to withstand lows like that without considerable damage ?
I have seen -17F here in the mid 80’s and -7F and -5F a few times (20+ years ago)… but not lately… hope those don’t come back.
Vegetative characteristics.
Vigorous variety with a semi-erect habit and only female flowers.
Wide oval buds, whose average sprouting date is March 22.
The leaves are rounded in shape, with an obtuse base and a pointed apex. Its length and
average width is 16.59 cm and 10.50 cm, respectively (length/width ratio: 1.67).
Flowering.
Average full bloom date May 5th. The flowers present a corolla with a
average diameter of 21.29 mm, four lobes and a regular cruciform calyx.
Characteristics of the fruit.
According to the type of astringency at the time of commercial maturity, it is a variety of
PVA type.
Average date of commercial maturity on October 29, average date of physiological maturity
on January 4.
Average fruit weight 296.74 g, average size 82.49 mm, length/width ratio 0.93.
Wide elliptical fruit of circular cross section. In its longitudinal section the apex is
obtuse, with a moderate groove on the same, without concentric cracking around the
apex or cracking in the area of the apex itself. Longitudinal ribbing absent or very
superficial.
The calyx is quite depressed, without grooves and without cracks at its end. The
The size of the calyx in relation to the diameter of the fruit is medium and its bearing is horizontal.
At commercial maturity, the color of the skin is orange and the pulp is yellow.
Soluble solids: 17.50 ºBrix
Acidity: 1.97 g/l acid. malic
Firmness: 4.42 kgf
This year I’m going to drop maybe 50 to 100 seeds in a circle, spacing them maybe 6" apart and grow a colony for grafting persimmons to have access to scionwood.
Perhaps I need to find something else to trade for other than those two persimmons…
I will keep looking and considering other options.
And I do plan to send those Apple scions anyway… whether I pick out something to trade for or not.
On Persimmons I am planning to purchase and plant IKKJ next spring. Starks says good for Zone 6-9 and I am in 7a … should work out well here.
Graft (Hybrid) Kassandra on some of my root stock… and graft (Americans) Prok, H63A, WS8-10 on some of my root stock. Those should all be plenty cold hardy for here.
Who needs more persimmons than that ? not me I think.
Rojo Brillante is the most cultivated kaki in Spain and it is also being planted in Italy and other countries. It responds very well to CO2 treatment to remove astringency. The fruit is large and conically shaped.It is probably one of the most exported kaki varieties in the world and they are even exported to Asia. It is a PVA variety which means that only the flesh that envelops the seed, if there are any, will turn dark and will be non astringent. The rest of the fruit will be astringent. It should thus be considered an astringent variety. Lotus is the most used rootstock in Spain but it will also graft very well onto virginiana rootstock. Virginiana rootstock is considered to be to vigorous for a commercial plantation. It is a very late ripening variety that needs a long growing season!!!
Corôa de Rei is a common variety in Portugal but it is not cultivated on a large scale like Rojo Brillante. The fruit is round and astringent and very similar to most common varieties like Tipo, Castellani, etc…It is juicy and mid season ripening. It grafts very well on both lotus and virginiana rootstock.
@aap sent me the Rojo Brillante scion and I grafted onto the D V. Rootstock a few years ago and it growing well in the pot. I should have a good crop this coming season. I am more into cross breeding with all my potted Kaki to make a great tasting hardy hybrids with Jerry Lehman Nikita’s Gift male offspring cold hardy to -31F in my Z5.
Tony, Giombo and KBS might be better choices to work with. KBS IS MORE COLD HARDY not by much. I am surprised that KBS IS NOT much being grown here on this forum.
I think the bigger question that no one is addressing is long-term compatibility of your grafts. Kaki on southern persimmon may be more of a gamble with incompatibility. I grafted several kaki on wild persimmon growing next to my barn several years ago. They grew well and fruited after 2-3 years, but they all began to decline by 3-5 years and eventually died. The graft unions swelled up and oozed sap, suggesting a delayed graft incompatibility. It’s possible these were all suckers from the same rootstock and I was just unlucky, but if I try kaki persimmons again, I will probably try to use kaki seedlings, northern rootstock from proven sources, or hybrid interstems. I would suggest you graft to multiple rootstocks that are far enough apart to be different genotypes, and hope some prove to be long lasting.
Hi, that is a very interesting point.
Persimmons don‘t root by cuttings, but I tried it with auxins etc. with Rosseyanka cuttings.
But no success. I will try it with air layering and other methods next year.
I wanted to know if rosseyanka is a good rootstock, because it is fast growing and maybe more compatible to kaki.
Rojo Brillante is not the cold hardiest.
I had 3 trees in a row which died over the winter(but they came from a warm climate)
I have one in a pot now
They are the easiest persimmon trees to buy here.
When it’s persimmon seasons our supermarkets get flooded with Rojo Brilliante from Spain.
It is a very good cultivar with big delicious fruits.
But it is not the best for shorter and colder seasons
