One green world trademarked these as mentioned.
That does not mean we can’t keep growing non patented or trademarked Claypool varities. It does mean we dont propagate using trademarked names unless One Green World is compensated.
When i grafted A-33 i noticed many scions were partially hollow. Anyone else notice that? H-118 was not like that.
They trademarked them? What a surprise!
When you asked about height on another thread i dont think that will be an issue for you. The 90 chromosome types must dwarf the 60s somewhat. Here is a description https://www.logees.com/american-persimmon-prairie-starr-diospyros-virginiana-hybrid.html
" American Persimmon Tree Prairie Star® (Diospyros virginiana hybrid)
Very large, sweet fruit is the hallmark of this early ripening American persimmon. The delicious tasting persimmon is ready to eat when the fruit gets soft. Hardy to minus 25 °F, Prairie Star® is self-fertile and will often bear up to 30 pounds of fruit after 2-3 years. It can be maintained at 12’ tall with pruning. The persimmon is native to North America and is naturally pest and disease resistant."
Clark, you have it reversed. 60 chromosome persimmons tend to be timber type trees up to 60 feet tall, sometimes taller. I have half a dozen at the back of my garden that are up to a foot diameter and one is at least 60 feet tall, maybe a bit more.
@clarkinks
If what Logee’s has stated is true (doubtful) then I’m worried about the height of this cultivar.
I understand 60 chromosome are timber type. That is why i said when 90s are grafteð to 60s they must dwarf them somewhat. When i see early golden etc. That were grafted on 60s in lawrence they were around 20 feet tall not 60 feet. This document and others show the 90 chromosome as being the larger fruited types that are smaller trees. The 60 chromosome type are the larger trees. If a 90 was grafted on a 60 it sounds like there is a dwarfing effect. This thread is worth reading Persimmon ploidy impact on height
My guess is the 100-46 would reach 20 feet at least based on this description Diospyros, '100-46' American persimmon – Cricket Hill Garden. Cliff England has very good things to say about it Asian Persimmon Tree and American Persimmon Tree Catalog
@Barkslip has not been on the forum but offered any scions Lehman grew. Jerry Lehman's Orchard Fall 2017 . Dax did a great job documenting different peersimmons in that thread. Dax said " What I can say is 100-46, 100-45, 100-43, 100-42 are all large and excellent. And, for me Claypool’s H63A may have been the best. It’s a more complex flavor than any of the 100-series"
These documents are great from above!
Claypool orchard 2005 (1).pdf (619.4 KB)
CLAYP.XLS (368 KB)
Claypool Orchard Records copy.pdf (12.5 MB)
Clark,
Your post # 246-247 that you stated “all kakis are non astringent”. I believe that is inaccurate. For example, Hachiya is a kaki. It is astringent before fully ripe. That is one example of many.
@jrd51 and @PharmerDrewee, your thought?
Which is why everyone else calls it Early Jewel… and will continue to be shared as it was intended.
Anyways…Clark you asked for a -25F persimmon and according to their descriptions all of their American Persimmons are cold hardy to -25F.
So you can grow all of the ones they sell with confidence now.
If you dont believe that here is a good lead for you from Maine… where i think it gets fairly cold…
https://snakeroot.net/MTCA/persimmons/
Here is a nice article about growing persimmons in the north eastern US.
@mamuang – Yes, you’re right.
@clarkinks – There’s been a ton of discussion in other threads of the astringency of Kaki varieties. If you think of the evolutionary tree, the original kaki was astringent. That’s presumably an adaptation to deter animals from eating the fruit before the seeds are mature. One mutation (PCNA) cuts off the production of astringent tannins early in fruit development, so you can eat these fruits well before fully ripe. Another mutation (PVNA) enhances production of ethanol by seeds, which precipitates tannins as seeds mature, so you can eat these fruits when the flesh gets brown but before they are mushy ripe.
The PCNA trait appears to be recessive, so the NA gene must be present on all 6 chromosomes. So a hybrid (e.g., JT-02) that is “50/50” genetically is still 100% astringent.
The PVNA trait appears to be additive (not the technically correct term). So I’d guess that in rough terms, a full PVNA variety probably has 5-6 PV alleles. A so-called PVA variety has maybe 3-4 PV alleles.
Note that the PCNA and PVNA traits are independent. The PCNA “Fuyu” seems to have some PVNA genetics in that a seeded Fuyu develops the brown flesh that is characteristic of PVNA types (with names like “Chocolate”).
Much of this is discussed in a long thread that I started on the prospects for creating a non-astringent hybrid by back-crossing JT-02 with its PCNA parent Taishu (or any other male-flowering PCNA). A small percentage of such crosses should be totally PCNA.
Thank you for pointing this out. i did not know this. Have never read it anywhere. Everyone simply calls them astringent or non astringent in my experience. Classification may not be as cut and dry as it appeared.
Thank you the cold hardiness is definately what i’m after.
Alot of places charge you to read this… or to buy the book…but its readable online if it interests you…
If you follow persimmon threads, astringent kakis have been mentioned several times in various threads here.
I happen to like Hachiya so I know how astringent it can be if not fully ripen.
I’m not following kakis as much for obvious reasons since i’m in Kansas and cannot grow them here. There is only one or two hybrids that might be cold hardy enough which are technically partially american and astringent. All that said it is very good information to know. We have grown american persimmons in my family all my life but they are often very astringent and small. We always waited to harvest them until after a couple of freezes. Had a very difficult time growing them in Kansas. When i was growing up we harvested some nearby in Kansas but the trees would not actually grow on the property. We planted them elsewhere and they are still there. My extended family had all we could want and i planted more there with my grandpa. The best persimmons we had would be considered really bad by todays standards. They were then still loaded with seeds. This is a completely different world i did not know about with persimmons like early golden. I tasted it i think around 2016. At the time i was in Lawrence with 39thparallel at another gentemans orchard in the area. It was an eye opener to see a ripe persimmon in september that was delicious. It may have been grown since the 1800s but we never tasted anything like early golden in my childhood. To say i was shocked was an understatement. No matter how much we know there is a great deal we don’t know.
That’s a great story.
I’m trying a few Kakis here, hoping they can survive our occasional dips to -5 F. I nearly lost 3 Ichi Ki Kei Jiro this winter.
I’ve also got the hybrids Kassandra and Mikkusu / JT-02. They are reportedly much hardier. The Kassandra tree is older and gave me a ton of fruit last year. It can lose astringency on the tree but I ended up treating with ethanol, which worked. The JT-02 is young but I managed to harvest 1 fruit last year from a separate graft. It lost astringency ripening on a kitchen counter. Both are worth trying.
The Holy Grail is a nonastringent cold hardy hybrid. I’ve pushed the back-cross of JT-02 because it seems the quickest route.
Separately I’m looking for an early ripening Virginiana that loses astringency reliably. Prok did not do it for me. I’ve added H63A, Dollywood, Barbra’s Blush and Morris Burton hoping that at least one of them works out.
Similar story for me. Growing up in WV we had persimmon trees at the top of the hill. They were never ripe until end of November. It was rare to find one that the animals missed. It wasn’t until I bought a property in SE Ohio a couple of years ago and they were ripe at the end of September that I realized this was a possibility and how much I love the flavor.
Growing up my grandpa knew where to find many things, serviceberries, butternuts, etc. that I haven’t had in 50 years.
@clarkinks
I’ve grafted some hollow ones before just to see what they would do and they turned out fine. I didn’t keep track of which ones those were to understand the long term.
@clarkinks
I think that’s somewhat of an over generalization. The 90 chromosome can get very tall too. I’ve seen big male northern trees including in Nebraska. In fact, the national champion tree is in Ohio. Now, that’s southern Ohio, so there’s a chance it’s tetraploid.
157" trunk circumference. 87’ height. 46’ crown. That would fill up your orchard 
Illinois champion is from by St Louis. Circumference 99.6", Height 89’, Spread 56’
Of course, the thing with the champion program is there are bigger trees out there that are never reported.
I have some northern seeds that are over 8’ from seed after only 2 growing seasons with no special care other than water. Why do they need to grow so quickly? Who knows?!? They are quite skinny, so they sure don’t handle the winds very well here.
Don’t ever do this if you are in a northern climate. I will include KS in that. 60 chromosome are as wimpy in winter cold as you could possibly get. Might kill completely to the ground in even -5 to -10F. I have quite a bit of experience trying this.
Based on these reports I will stop recommending Prok to friends. I have a Giboshi that’s been Drop King for over a decade. Michael at Edible Landscape thought it might be a nutrient deficiency in the soil- maybe manganese (cured with manganese sulfate), assuming the problem is not excess N. I bought MnSO4 but have not applied it, for some reason. . I grafted Nui Nai into Giboshi this year to see if pollinated fruits hang better. I grew pollinated Giboshi years ago and recall they didn’t drop badly at all.
