“Mad Cat Farm is a homestead and permaculture garden-farm in Kansas (zone 6), growing hardy and disease resistant plants for use in permaculture installations, homesteads and food forests. We exist to help you gain food sovereignty.”
“Jerry Lehman’s Delight = 100-46 Hardiness: Will grow in USDA zones 5-9. Variety description: This cultivar is one of the finest crosses to result form the American persimmon breeding work by Jerry Lehman of Terra Haute, Indiana. This early to mid-season ripening cultivar. Large fruit has a reddish orange blush and an excellent sweet flavor. Trees bear heavy crops. The pulp of the ripe fruit is recommended use in puddings, cookies and breads. Partially self-fertile female tree will produce seedless fruit without a male pollinator.”
Thanks for posting that. I had seen another video of Cliff doing this and had meant to try it this year. It looks like it could be a nice alternative to whip and tongue when the material is smaller and a simple splice is easier.
This was on pawpaw and that is what I’d seen him demo before as well. Anyone tried this with persimmons - or any other trees for that matter?
It is basically like a cleft graft when the rootstock is to small to cleft graft. Great example of alternative grafting. That is highly effective on nut trees. His experience shows on that video. It is not often i see someone who has that level of skill with his hands demonstrating what they do.
Does anyone wonder why every persimmon kaki or American has so little information available about them? I’m making it my goal to change that. I realize it is self explanatory all American persimmons are astringent until ripe and all kaki are non astringent. Hybrids are astringent typically. There is much to know which explains why persimmons are even less valued than pears. Does everyone realize an astringent 50/50 hybrid like JT-02 aka Mikkusu are one of the few i believe are hardy enough to survive in the country in Kansas? FigBid - Online Auctions of Fig Trees, Fig Cuttings & Growing Supplies - JT-02 (A Hybrid Persimmon)
City growers can grow less than 10-15 types. That said it is an easy conversation about hybrids with people from Kansas. That wont likely be true in a few more years. That puts us here in this thread with Improved American persimmons. American persimmons are delicious in my experience. They are soft and not firm. There is simply 60 and 90 chromosome types. Simple ends there and questions arise. Which is the smaller tree , has the largest fruit, ripens earliest , and where do they grow naturally? Those answers have peaked everyones interest but the answers are not concrete but the generalizations are possible though not precise in ploidy discussions Persimmon ploidy impact on height . What is true is that Tetraploid aka 60 chromosome persimmons and Hexaploid aka 90 chromosome Persimmons dont always know where they are supposed to grow. One of our forum members @Lucky_P is mentioned here in this document which i want to point out. Notice all of these much larger types in this document are 90 chromosome types. The 60 chromosome type persimmons tend to be smaller fruited.
@Lucky_P notes sfes is actually 60 chromosome. He has grown these improved types over 20 years. Notice he says its smaller fruited which confirms what i said above. Quoting Lucky he says “look at the chart in Kirk Pomper’s article on ploidy levels… SFES, which is my own local selection - is a tetraploid 60C selection - the ortet is an open grown tree, in a fenceline bordering a crop field, alongside KY Hwy 91… it has a spreading orchard-type habit and is less than 20 ft tall; I have no idea how old the tree is, but certainly no less than 30-40 yrs, as it was a mature, fruiting tree when I first noticed it…not significantly taller today than it was 20 years ago.When I first selected SFES, I thought it might be a polygamodioecious male… but no, it’s a female, as far as we can tell. Produces about 80% small seedless fruits, and 20% larger fruits, usually with a single seed… but even those larger fruits are small in comparison to Yates, Prok, etc.” We look at Yates and Prok and clearly see the larger types Lucky compared this tree with are 90 chromosome.
Probably doesnt answer your question but here goes a start-
What temps are you shooting for?
From Cliff-
Steiermark- So named after a town in Austrian Alps, a large tree growing in an open pasture near the town… No one really knows how this excellent persimmon came to be in existence, just that it has been there for the past 50 year or so. Repeated events of sub-freezing temperatures below zero and down to minus -16 here in Kentucky, with barely noticeable twig damage, have made it a reliable grower and producer here.
Rosseyanka -Virginiana X Kaki persimmon, A Russian hybrid and is a development of Nikita’s Botanical Gardens of Yalta. Large fruit 2 to 3 inches that is nearly seedless and tastes like Kaki persimmon, has been evaluated and grown in the USA for nearly 20 years. Recorded to withstand temperatures down in the -20s in January 1996 in Indiana. Is very winter hardy.
Kasandra – A Hybrid of Great wall Crossed by an F2 Male of Rosseyanka Hybrid back crossed to Virginiana. Tested cold hardy to -16 with no evidence of freeze damage.
Zima khurma =NB-02 Persimmon bred out of Nikitskaya Bordovaya, cold hardy and good producer of orange medium to large size fruit that ripens mid-season on a semi-vigorous tree. The tree has low spreading growth habit and is a beautiful specimen in the fall. Trees are very cold hardy tested down to minus -16.4 F for a long time.
We can dip to -25f but we usually don’t. My goal is to grow things that can survive those temperatures when we do. I expect more of those temperatures coming very soon. That information you posted is very helpful.
Is there a restriction on scionwood or seeds? At my location, I can easily get seed started American persimmon up faster than bareroot. In fact it’s not even close, especially looking at a year or two down the road. Often I can graft them by the next year and they are healthier, grow faster, and more established to boot.
It might be worth asking if 60 and 90 chromosome persimmons are partially incompatable. This would be similar but less pronounced than pear grafted to quince. I’m not the first person to ask or suspect this.
" Current status and perspective of persimmon research in China
College of Horticulture, Nanjing Agricultural University, Nanjing 210095, PR China
Abstract: The persimmon, belonging to the genus Diospyros, is one of the most common fruits with high edible and economic value. China has the largest cultivated area and annual production of persimmons in the world. Pollination-constant nonastringent (PCNA) persimmon, which has great advantages of natural deastringency and direct edibility, has been a key target for industry development and variety selection worldwide. However, there are still many challenges in the development of persimmons in China; for example, the ineffective cost of artificial deastringency treatment of persimmons, laborious breeding of fine varieties of PCNA persimmon, and severe symptoms of delayed graft-incompatibility. This review summarizes the current status and development of persimmons in China. The current progress on the removal of astringency in persimmons, screening of rootstocks with wide compatibility, and the breeding process of PCNA persimmon is highlighted. This review will help promote the breeding of excellent persimmon varieties and the sustainable development of the persimmon industry in China.
"
That does not mean we can’t keep growing non patented or trademarked Claypool varities. It does mean we dont propagate using trademarked names unless One Green World is compensated.
H-118
A-33
H-55A
F-25
When i grafted A-33 i noticed many scions were partially hollow. Anyone else notice that? H-118 was not like that.
" American Persimmon Tree Prairie Star® (Diospyros virginiana hybrid)
Very large, sweet fruit is the hallmark of this early ripening American persimmon. The delicious tasting persimmon is ready to eat when the fruit gets soft. Hardy to minus 25 °F, Prairie Star® is self-fertile and will often bear up to 30 pounds of fruit after 2-3 years. It can be maintained at 12’ tall with pruning. The persimmon is native to North America and is naturally pest and disease resistant."
Clark, you have it reversed. 60 chromosome persimmons tend to be timber type trees up to 60 feet tall, sometimes taller. I have half a dozen at the back of my garden that are up to a foot diameter and one is at least 60 feet tall, maybe a bit more.
I understand 60 chromosome are timber type. That is why i said when 90s are grafteð to 60s they must dwarf them somewhat. When i see early golden etc. That were grafted on 60s in lawrence they were around 20 feet tall not 60 feet. This document and others show the 90 chromosome as being the larger fruited types that are smaller trees. The 60 chromosome type are the larger trees. If a 90 was grafted on a 60 it sounds like there is a dwarfing effect. This thread is worth reading Persimmon ploidy impact on height
" @tonyOmahaz5 mentions he keeps his prok at 8 feet in the same thread above. My guess is that he is growing a 60 chromosome wild american persimmon rootstock ith a 90 chromosome prok grafted on. Sounds the best way to do it.
Dax also said this
Clark,
Your post # 246-247 that you stated “all kakis are non astringent”. I believe that is inaccurate. For example, Hachiya is a kaki. It is astringent before fully ripe. That is one example of many.
