@clarkinks – There’s been a ton of discussion in other threads of the astringency of Kaki varieties. If you think of the evolutionary tree, the original kaki was astringent. That’s presumably an adaptation to deter animals from eating the fruit before the seeds are mature. One mutation (PCNA) cuts off the production of astringent tannins early in fruit development, so you can eat these fruits well before fully ripe. Another mutation (PVNA) enhances production of ethanol by seeds, which precipitates tannins as seeds mature, so you can eat these fruits when the flesh gets brown but before they are mushy ripe.
The PCNA trait appears to be recessive, so the NA gene must be present on all 6 chromosomes. So a hybrid (e.g., JT-02) that is “50/50” genetically is still 100% astringent.
The PVNA trait appears to be additive (not the technically correct term). So I’d guess that in rough terms, a full PVNA variety probably has 5-6 PV alleles. A so-called PVA variety has maybe 3-4 PV alleles.
Note that the PCNA and PVNA traits are independent. The PCNA “Fuyu” seems to have some PVNA genetics in that a seeded Fuyu develops the brown flesh that is characteristic of PVNA types (with names like “Chocolate”).
Much of this is discussed in a long thread that I started on the prospects for creating a non-astringent hybrid by back-crossing JT-02 with its PCNA parent Taishu (or any other male-flowering PCNA). A small percentage of such crosses should be totally PCNA.
Thank you for pointing this out. i did not know this. Have never read it anywhere. Everyone simply calls them astringent or non astringent in my experience. Classification may not be as cut and dry as it appeared.
I’m not following kakis as much for obvious reasons since i’m in Kansas and cannot grow them here. There is only one or two hybrids that might be cold hardy enough which are technically partially american and astringent. All that said it is very good information to know. We have grown american persimmons in my family all my life but they are often very astringent and small. We always waited to harvest them until after a couple of freezes. Had a very difficult time growing them in Kansas. When i was growing up we harvested some nearby in Kansas but the trees would not actually grow on the property. We planted them elsewhere and they are still there. My extended family had all we could want and i planted more there with my grandpa. The best persimmons we had would be considered really bad by todays standards. They were then still loaded with seeds. This is a completely different world i did not know about with persimmons like early golden. I tasted it i think around 2016. At the time i was in Lawrence with 39thparallel at another gentemans orchard in the area. It was an eye opener to see a ripe persimmon in september that was delicious. It may have been grown since the 1800s but we never tasted anything like early golden in my childhood. To say i was shocked was an understatement. No matter how much we know there is a great deal we don’t know.
I’m trying a few Kakis here, hoping they can survive our occasional dips to -5 F. I nearly lost 3 Ichi Ki Kei Jiro this winter.
I’ve also got the hybrids Kassandra and Mikkusu / JT-02. They are reportedly much hardier. The Kassandra tree is older and gave me a ton of fruit last year. It can lose astringency on the tree but I ended up treating with ethanol, which worked. The JT-02 is young but I managed to harvest 1 fruit last year from a separate graft. It lost astringency ripening on a kitchen counter. Both are worth trying.
The Holy Grail is a nonastringent cold hardy hybrid. I’ve pushed the back-cross of JT-02 because it seems the quickest route.
Separately I’m looking for an early ripening Virginiana that loses astringency reliably. Prok did not do it for me. I’ve added H63A, Dollywood, Barbra’s Blush and Morris Burton hoping that at least one of them works out.
Similar story for me. Growing up in WV we had persimmon trees at the top of the hill. They were never ripe until end of November. It was rare to find one that the animals missed. It wasn’t until I bought a property in SE Ohio a couple of years ago and they were ripe at the end of September that I realized this was a possibility and how much I love the flavor.
Growing up my grandpa knew where to find many things, serviceberries, butternuts, etc. that I haven’t had in 50 years.
@clarkinks
I’ve grafted some hollow ones before just to see what they would do and they turned out fine. I didn’t keep track of which ones those were to understand the long term.
@clarkinks
I think that’s somewhat of an over generalization. The 90 chromosome can get very tall too. I’ve seen big male northern trees including in Nebraska. In fact, the national champion tree is in Ohio. Now, that’s southern Ohio, so there’s a chance it’s tetraploid.
Of course, the thing with the champion program is there are bigger trees out there that are never reported.
I have some northern seeds that are over 8’ from seed after only 2 growing seasons with no special care other than water. Why do they need to grow so quickly? Who knows?!? They are quite skinny, so they sure don’t handle the winds very well here.
Don’t ever do this if you are in a northern climate. I will include KS in that. 60 chromosome are as wimpy in winter cold as you could possibly get. Might kill completely to the ground in even -5 to -10F. I have quite a bit of experience trying this.
Based on these reports I will stop recommending Prok to friends. I have a Giboshi that’s been Drop King for over a decade. Michael at Edible Landscape thought it might be a nutrient deficiency in the soil- maybe manganese (cured with manganese sulfate), assuming the problem is not excess N. I bought MnSO4 but have not applied it, for some reason. . I grafted Nui Nai into Giboshi this year to see if pollinated fruits hang better. I grew pollinated Giboshi years ago and recall they didn’t drop badly at all.
I think @aap recommended manganese and micronutrients to help prevent fruit drop in persimmons. Applying both certainly helped with my kaki and so did pollination from Cheong Pyong and Nishimura Wase once they started flowering copiously. However, Prok still drops insane numbers of flowers. 100-46 holds onto practically everything with the same treatment. I don’t have other virginiana varieties fruiting yet to further compare though. There’s also something flowering that pollinates both 100-46 and Prok. They’re normally seeded.
@hambone when do your Giboshi usually drop? I’ve got about 10 fruit on a little 2nd year tree (about 4 feet tall) that appear to be hanging on pretty well. They are quite possibly pollinated by a chocolate that is about 10 feet away and had all male blooms this year.
I’m almost feeling cautiously optimistic, but that probably jinxed it.
You already solved the drop problem by getting Giboshi pollinated. And you improved its taste at the same time. It will blow your socks off. I envy your Chocolate!
My Chocolate graft here years ago died during its first winter so I gave up on it. You may have some city heat island effect going on.
Oh- my G. drop all through the season, more heavily as the season progresses.
edit i didnt see the post on this… i got this link in my email today.
Caramel Cocktail and Sugar Daddy Persimmons
The best American persimmons you’ve ever tasted-guaranteed!
A hybrid marvel more than 10 years in the making, Caramel Cocktail has a craveable flavor profile that includes honeyed caramel, nutmeg, clove and vanilla. Vibrant orange, larger-than-average fruits have none of the usual astringency. Offering nearly seedless harvests when planted alone, Caramel Cocktail produces larger yields when paired with pollinator Sugar Daddy. Grows 35-60 ft tall and, once established, produces 2-4 bushels of fruit from Aug. to Dec. Potted. Zones 5-8.
