Juhl is Yates.
That seems like a weird story about Prok which was supposedly bred by George Slate at Geneva. I hadn’t heard that acronym before.
Korp might be “Krazy Old Red Persimmon” 
2 Likes
Clark, the description of Morris Burton does not match original descriptions published nearly 100 years ago. Red color is a problem. Morris Burton is described as more “yellow” than most persimmons.
1 Like
Yes, Juhl = Yates. It’s actually bigger than Prok in my limited experience. There are lots of references to 3” diameter Prok fruits and Ive yet to see one over 2”.
I think @parkwaydrive was the source here on the forum of Prok having been an acronym. If memory serves, he was saying that John Gordon was really the “breeder” of Prok, and that he and Slate collaborated so thoroughly that their work was more or less a unified effort. Id not heard of ‘Pipher’ before, thinking it might have been a reference to a more well known older cultivar, ‘Pieper’, but apparently not.
Funny how stories get reshaped and abbreviated in the telling and retelling.
4 Likes
Thought i would find out more about pipher. Since we are all way down the rabbit hole anyway, we might as well explore further!
"
Pipher- High fruit production-Hardy Central Illinois Strain
This strain was collected from the original Pipher tree in a small town in central Illinois. This extremely large tree is over 2 ft. in diameter and produces vigorous seedlings. Fruit production is very high. This strain is most likely the result of a chance seedling from a local population of persimmons that are not from cultivated selections. When I visited the tree many years ago the tree appeared to be the only one in the area but it still had fruit meaning it was possibly self fertile or I could not find where the male tree was!
All of the seedlings I have at my farm are very good yielders. Many of the male trees were strong growers as well. Definitely it was a good wild seed source from the small amount of seedlings that I ‘tested’. For a while, I liked this seed strain so much I ordered a lot of them from Ralph Kreider who had access to the original tree. From what he told me, the owners of the tree, liked having him clean up the fruit on their lawn. I grew and sold the seedlings under the Pipher name. It was one seed source that never had winter damage. Many of the seedlings showed large leaves as well. I kept some of the seedlings and put them in a single row partly in the shade of northern pecans on a sandy hillside. Many of them exhibit the black coloration on the skin of the fruit which seems to add a caramel type flavor to the fruit. Most ripen starting in mid to late October and goes through December. Fruit often stays in the tree into January and drops slowly.
Because of the large fruit sizes and the cold hardiness, this is a good seed source for the northern form of the American persimmon as well as developing cold hardy American persimmons and more vigorous forms of American Persimmon"
Some people breed persimmons for cold hardiness using “Early Golden, John Rick, Yates, Killen, Beaver, Pipher, and Morris Burton, among others.”
Lets go back to the old gardenweb 11-13 years ago for a minute
"
American persimmon size
13 years ago
It’s been a dry summer for many of us and so not the most favorable conditions for growing large persimmons, but I was wondering what some of the few of us here who grow American persimmons were achieving in terms of size of the fruit.
My largest persimmons this year so far have been about 2 1/4 inch diameter. The usually large Prok and Yates have been coming in less than 2 inches, and Keener, another large one, though still immature, smaller than that.
EmailSaveComment15Follow
Average rating: 4.8 out of 5 stars26 Reviews
Sort by:Oldest
Comments (15)
13 years ago
My largest American persimmon fruits are ‘ruby’, ‘pipher’, and ‘evelyn’. All 3 of these are slightly over two inches. ‘Pipher’ is barrel-shaped or elongated. All three of these varieties are more yellowish in color - skin and flesh compared to 'early golden, ‘meader’ ‘yates’, and ‘john rick’ which are darker orange. Out of all the ones I have fruiting so far the variety ‘blue’ has the most reddish flesh but is not as firm as most others. I dont notice a lot of differences in flavor among these though ‘early golden’ would likely be my favorite if I had to choose one based on flavor, color, and firmness. ‘Blue’ fruits need to set a day or two after dropping to lose all astringency.
-
Like
-
Save
-
hemnancy
13 years ago
The wild ones I remember as a kid in Texas were only about an inch. I’m growing some seedling ones but am wondering how large your trees were before they started to bear fruit as I am still waiting… one is now over my head slightly.
I did learn that I can make tea from the leaves so I harvest some in fall so I get something from growing the trees.
(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3016833/describe-the-typical-american-bedroom)Area Rug - Persimmon/red
creekweb
Original Author
13 years ago
Hemnancy:
As you remember, wild seedling persimmons are most often no larger than an inch in diameter. Just when a seedling persimmon starts to bear will vary some and is more closely related to the age of the tree than its size, but I would say 5 or 6 years would be typical.
Shane11:
The size that you have been attaining on your Evelyn and Ruby is impressive; mine are little more than half that diameter. The conditions there may be particularly conducive to growing larger persimmons. Makes me wonder how my larger persimmon variety would do for you - email me if you’d like some scions.
-
Like
-
Save
-
Tony
13 years ago
Early golden seem likes the best tasting American persimmon, but how large is the fruit? I have heard meader supposed to taste pretty good too.
Tony
-
Like
-
Save
-
alexander3_gw
13 years ago
Creekweb,
If I read your message right, Prok is not your largest? Which variety is 2 14/4 inches?
Alex
-
Like
-
Save
-
creekweb
Original Author
13 years ago
Early Golden has medium sized fruit for me. My largest persimmons come from an as yet unnamed variety.
-
Like
-
Save
-
organic_mescalito
11 years ago
Creekweb, have you found any more information on your large fruiting persimmon? Who bred this variety? I had a few fruits survive the squirrels last year, they were tasty! Large, attractive foliage makes this plant a winner as a landscape tree as well.
-
Like
-
Save
-
organic_mescalito
11 years ago
Creekweb, would it be 100-46?
-
Like
-
Save
-
creekweb
Original Author
11 years ago
That one hasn’t yet been named as far as I know but is referred to with increasing familiarity recently by persimmon growers here and elsewhere by the seedling number Jerry Lehman assigned to it which is indeed 100-46. It dose make a nice landscape specimen and the fruit is plentiful and tasty.
-
Like
-
Save
-
skyjs
11 years ago
Ruby is the biggest US persimmon I’ve eaten. Is 100-46 early, mid, or late? We can really only reliably grow early ones here. Anyone care to describe the taste?
Thanks,
John S
PDX OR
-
Like
-
Save
-
creekweb
Original Author
11 years ago
100-46 has a long season that starts before Yates (which is considered an early ripening one) but after the very early ones like NC-10. Flavor and consistency are good but IMO not as good as the very best varieties. The orange ones can be picked early and ripened off the tree.
-
Like
-
Save
-
cousinfloyd
11 years ago
Why is there so much emphasis on size with American persimmons anyways? I may have asked something similar before, but what do those of you who grow American persimmons use them for? I like to eat them fresh, but I like the bite-size, mostly seedless ones best for fresh eating. The only other thing I really ever do with them (although I’d love to find more good uses for them) is to make persimmon pudding, but if they’re going to all be pulped together then why worry about the size of individual fruits? And surely larger fruits are at least somewhat more likely to go splat when they fall from the tree.
-
Like
-
Save
-
creekweb
Original Author
11 years ago
The breeding efforts for American persimmon are proceeding along two different tracks - one to produce clear and plentiful pulp primarily for pudding but also for a number of other products and the other for fresh eating. It is for this second purpose that breeders are seeking larger sized fruit.
Part of the reason is the aesthetics or visual appeal of the fruit. While small fruits in groups can be visually appealing, this quality is diminished when the individual fruits are isolated, and the delicate nature of persimmon skin requires they be to prevent damage. Picture an isolated grape…can make you just want to throw it away as residue.
Part of the reason is to offset the presence of seeds and increase the pulp to seed ratio. It means more edible fruit for the work of eating. This is a dessert fruit after all and the going needs to be easy!
Part of the reason is the paradigm set by the persimmon’s very successful Asian brother. Comparison to the kaki, a major player in world markets, naturally has the breeder questioning, “why can’t you be like your brother?” and so seeks a larger fruit.
-
Like
-
Save
-
cousinfloyd
11 years ago
Creekweb, thanks for the very informative response. Selecting for better pulp to seed ratio makes a lot of sense, and I can see the desire to want to compete with Asian persimmons.
-
Like
-
Save
-
eskota
11 years ago
They grow wild here, and are half-dollar size or smaller. Totally inedible until they’re frosted and fall off the tree. If you beat the raccoons to them, and don’t mind picking off the leaves and twigs, they are much sweeter and IMO better flavored than asian ones. Of course, there are more seeds than pulp.
I was unaware of any named varieties. Who sells these?"
More from 12 years ago
" American persimmon report
12 years ago
I thought there might be a few members that might find my ongoing trials with American persimmons interesting. I have decided to remove the varieties ‘pipher’, ‘golden supreme’, ‘blue’, and ‘evelyn’ from my plantings. All of these are productive but the quality of the fruits do not come close to ‘early golden’, ‘yates’, and ‘ruby’ which are exceptional in flavor and productive. I am very short on space so only the best can stay.
‘Meader’ is also a good variety if weak wooded but has the highest sugar content of all the ones I have tried. It is not seedless as claimed at least in my climate.
My ‘szukis’ which is going into its 5th or 6th year has been all male for me so have not gotten any fruit. I may be removing it soon since I do not need a male tree.
I have planted others such as ‘dollywood’, ‘craggs’, ‘weber’, ‘wabash’, ‘morris burton’, but none have fruited yet. I will be planting ‘elmo’ this spring.
I also have ‘john rick’ but I cannot discern much if any difference between it and ‘early golden’. It is a good variety.
‘Blue’ and ‘szukis’ make especially ornamental trees and I imagine ‘wabash’ will as well.
Of my 3 favorites so far ‘yates’ ripens first sometimes starting at the end of August followed closely by ‘early golden’ Their ripening overlaps quite a bit. The fruit of ‘yates’ is slightly larger than ‘early golden’ and the flavor and flesh color of these 2 are very similar though ‘early golden’ flesh is more clear. ‘Ruby’ has the largest fruits of these and is a later ripening variety extending the season into November and sometimes into December. The flesh color of ‘ruby’ compared to the other 2 is more yellowish/orange. The other 2 being darker orange.
Sort by:Oldest
Comments (5)
chills71
12 years ago
Ive wanted Szukis for a while, but it seems to sell out before I even see its offered each year (I swear it is sold out as soon as the new prices are listed at nolin river…)
~Chills
I planted Elmo at my (ex) Mother in Law’s 2 years back. I did get visitation rights in the divorce, though.
-
Like
-
Save
-
wlh8723
12 years ago
I would like to try a few of these in Georgia. I would graft a scion onto a native that is growing on the edge of a pine clearing. Can you or someone you know spare two or three bud sticks? I can send you a self adressed bubble envelope and postage stamps."
Back to oikos for a second
In 1915 persimmons were being investigated
15 years ago on gardenweb
"
What are your favorite American persimmon cultivars? (taste-wise)
15 years ago
Hi,
Thanks to Dennis, from Michigan (denninmi)(cultivar: ‘Meader’), and finding a few wild growing specimens in the woods, I finally got to find out how American persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) tastes. I was impressed, particularly with the ‘Meader’ (at least) over the wild, smaller ones I found in the woods in the late fall.
I’ve been reading, essentially, every single article I can find that refers to common American persimmon cultivars and most of the information found online seems to be unoriginal, coming from a small hand-full of original opinions, mostly completely senseless in terms of distinction: i.e. one cultivar is said to be “very sweet”, whereas another “taste: excellent”, and yet another “delicious”. So, basically the comparisons between cultivars found online are nearly invalid.
I found personal testimonies on this site of greater value. According to these:
*Some find ‘Meader’ to retain a little astringency, even when ripe; this is confirmed by Lee Reich (who I later contacted to confirm his preference for ‘Szukis’).
*Some find ‘Wabash’ to be better then a number of popular cultivars, consistent with one site which states this cultivar is sweeter then Garretson.
*Some find ‘Szukis’ (cf: Reich, et al) to be the best tasting.
*And there are other opinions on this and other forums…
So, please post your opinion comments being sure to list the different cultivars you’ve tried to show comparison.
Popular cultivars, supposedly chosen for taste: John Rick, Yates (Juhl), Szukis, Wabash, Garretson, Morris, Killen, Goldensupreme. I’d be curious to know about ‘Prok’, as it is said to be as large as 3" and originally found in NY state.
EmailSaveComment26Follow
[
[
](javascript:
Featured Answer
brandon7 TN_zone7
15 years ago
I bet that there aren’t that many people that have tried and compared a large number of these. Also, taste will vary considerably with different tasters, how ripe the fruit was, where it was grown, etc. My point is, a thorough comparison may not be readily available. You may have to narrow your search down to a few that look promising and give them a try.
One thing you might try is to call and talk to a supplier like Nolin River Nut Tree Nursery. They grow a pretty good variety, and so should be more familiar than most with many different varieties.
Another thing you might try if you are serious enough about the search is to contact Jerry Lehman, Martha Davis or someone with the Indiana Nut Growers Association. You can find out more about them at this link:
http://www.nutgrowers.org/Claypool%20orchard%202005.pdf
Here is a link that might be useful: Diospyros virginiana at Nolin River
Read More
- Like | 2
- Save
Sort by:Oldest
Comments (26)
njbiology
Original Author
15 years ago
Hi Brandon,
I spoke to John at Nolin River (i’m going to order a ‘Szukis’ & ‘Morris Burton’, as well as ‘Sunflower’ & ‘Wells’ Pawpaw) - that place seems the place to order native persimmons.
John recommended the above ‘Morris Burton’ as the sweetest (according to many of his customers). According to a post by Lucky on this forum, ‘Morris Burton’ is considered one of the sweetest by reputation.
I’ll go with those for now. How can I keep I maintain the trees (pruned) small, without greatly shortening its life - I have a feeling it will weaken the tree, maybe cause the trunk to mature with a bonsai effect (disproportionately large, expanded trunk). I’d like to keep them 10’ max."
Sometimes rare persimmon can be located here
Or here
Or here
Morris Burton is discussed here in more detail
@hobilus @Fusion_power @snowflake
Does the description below sound accurate?
They say “Yates have very large fruits for a native persimmon, 2 1/2” in diameter. Ripening late August- September. Very productive. Self fertile. Discovered by Ed Yates of Cincinnati, OH. Yates won first place at the Mitchell Persimmon Festival in 1983. Height 20’ Space 15’ circle Zones 5-8."
Also
"
Yates/Juhl Persimmon
(Diospyros virginiana) Zone 5-9
Yates/Juhl Persimmon produces very large (2.5") fruit. Flavor is outstanding with a sugar sweet flavor with a hint of apricot. Fruit drops when they are fully ripe, astringency free with soft melting flesh. Very productive and seedless if grown without a pollinator.
Fruit Drop: Late August-September"
This site has some interesting american persimmons Products - American Persimmon - Grimo Nut Nursery
" Campbell NC10’ American Persimmon Graft
‘Campbell NC10’, a seedling of ‘Early Golden’, was introduced by Doug Campbell a plant enthusiast from Niagara. The fruit begins to ripen by mid September and continues until late October. The delicious oval fruit is medium size and is seedless in the absence of a male tree. For best results, protect the graft with a mound of soil around it for the first 2 winters. Suited for zones 6-8.
‘Gordon’ American Persimmon Graft
‘Gordon’ was selected by John Gordon from the Buffalo, NY area. It was a seedling growing in the Geneva Experimental Station test plot. The delicious oval fruit is medium/large with a firmer texture than most. The fruit ripens slowly from early October until November. Protect the graft for the first 2 winters with a mound of soil well above the graft especially for zone 6. Suited for zones 6-8.
‘Peiper’ American Persimmon Graft
‘Peiper’ is a selection from Pennsylvania. It is a very heavy annual producer of medium sized round fruit. It normally ripens some fruit by mid-September and continues over several weeks. Suited for zones 6-8.
‘Szukis’ American Persimmon Graft
‘Szukis’ is probably a seedling of ‘Early Golden’ sold to Lydia Szukis, a master gardener in Niagara. The medium round fruit ripens early to mid October. This odd tree has been known to sport male branches that also produce a cherry size fruit. Suited for zones 6-8. Protect it for the first 2 winters with a mound of soil above the graft union, especially in zone 6.
‘Yates’ American Persimmon Graft
‘Yates’ is a very productive tree from Ohio. The soft sweet fruit is large and begins to ripen in early October. Suited for zones 6-8. Protect the graft for the first 2 winters with a mound of soil above the graft for zone 6."
Garretson though not mentioned on that site is wildly popular even with sites like starks
“Hardy all the way up to zone 4! The Garretson American Persimmon is a seedling of Early Golden, making it a relatively early ripener and it has been noted to ripen as far north as Geneva NY, and Grant MI. The small to medium-sized fruit is a rich orange color, soft with good flavor and small seeds. The Garretson American Persimmon is known for its high yields.”
Pay attention to pollination “Selected for its large, sweet and delicious, deep-orange fruit, Garretson American Persimmon is also prized for its striking, orange-yellow fall foliage. While partially self-fertile, planting Garretson with a Male Persimmon will ensure heavy crops.” - One green World Nursery
3 Likes
I lost Yates during the year that hit -30Fish so I haven’t tasted it yet. It was lost across multiple trees but there could have been other factors. I had heard that the flavor or aroma might be more intense than some. Maybe someone said “perfumey”. Maybe that just means a less dull flavor. I don’t know. I regrafted it last year.
1 Like
‘Korp’ is a sibling of ‘Prok’(spelled backwards); both arising from Dr. Slate’s breeding efforts at Geneva NY.
3 Likes
Yes, but that story is too boring to pass down over the generations
I have a seedling that I have named “Krap”. I figure that is at least a bit descriptive.
9 Likes
Good one!
I’ll look forward to trading for it in the future.
I’ll plant it next to one named “Loada”.
5 Likes
I can’t find it now but I thought I read here once again the ridiculous assertion (maybe subsequently deleted?) that Prok may be a hybrid of D. virginiana x D. kaki. Reminded where Prok originated, I’m compelled to point out that Korp would be a hybrid too. So that would make two unheralded F1 inter-specific hybrids to stand alongside Rosseyanka and Mikkusu / JT-02.
Well, once again I call BS. If you think I’m wrong, then please provide any credible documentation you might possess showing that Dr. Slate in Geneva NY was even trying to hybridize D. Kaki.
Routinely we see marketing hype that misrepresents the heritage of trees. But we should all keep our heads on straight: No credible F1 inter-specific Virginiana x Kaki hybrids exist in general circulation other than Rosseyanka and Mikkusu.
1 Like
Any large fruited variety like korp or prok is rumored to be part kaki but we know they are pure American.
4 Likes
Can they test the dna of a few larger fruited Americans to prove it? Geneva Long also looks like Saiju so wonder if thats a hybrid. Who does testing like this? Any universities (like KSU with pawpaws) do persimmon research?
2 Likes
Savanna Institute has been doing some work on the persimmon genome, but IDK where they are in that project…I sent materials from several known 90 & 60-chromosome persimmons, a couple of years back.
I’ve seen the claims that Prok and Keener are kaki x virginiana hybrids. There is nothing about either that says ‘hybrid’ to me.
Although the claim about Keener is that it is a hybrid bred by Luther Burbank, Jerry Lehman went through Burbank’s writings and never found anything indicating that he’d had any success hybridizing D.kaki and D.virginiana.
2 Likes
There are lots of sources for rootstocks for persimmons and I think a few places offer seedlings from trees they’ve selected as providing particularly good rootstocks. Not quite the same as clonal rootstocks, but at least they are probably better than the genetic crapshoot of ordering random Virginiana seedlings.
Red Fern Farm has a variety called Wapello that Tom notes as making exceptional seedling rootstocks. They don’t offer seedlings of this tree themselves, but I was in touch with him earlier this year to see if he would have any seed and was able to buy some from him today. If anyone is interested you should reach out to him via email, facebook, etc. since they don’t list these seeds on their site. They do have seeds listed on their site of a few other varieties as well and in general their price for persimmon seeds is very reasonable.
Here is his description of Wapello:
Very late ripening—November/December—of small fruit, but extremely heavy bearing and fruit hangs on the tree all winter, with a little bit dropping every day until March or April. A great wildlife tree, but also the seedlings make especially vigorous rootstocks. Grafted trees on these rootstocks are twice as productive compared to grafted trees on “ordinary” rootstocks.
3 Likes
A bunch of people tried and failed. They wrote of their efforts too. Burbank tried intently. My understanding is that Slate WAS trying his hand at creating an F-1, as was Gordon. Geneva Long, a Gordon selection was also heralded as a possible hybrid for a time. The mechanism preventing embryo viability was poorly understood, and the efforts made involved blunt mass selection. I dont have sources, but I can say the concept was freely discussed by Gordon. Lee Reich covers it a bit in his book (which I lent out and no longer own)
5 Likes
To most, garretson tastes much better and is bigger.
2 Likes
Don’t have much experience with Juhl, but I’ve seen quite a few 2 to 2.5 inch Prok fruits. They can be quite variable year to year, and I suspect probably even more variable by location. John Gordon told me that Pipher was the seed parent of Prok. I have both here (right next to each other), and there is definitely a family resemblance. In the acronym, the (P) was ‘Persimmon’, the (R) was for ‘Ralph’, and the ‘K’ was for ‘Krieder’. Guess he needed a vowel and ‘I’ wasn’t to his liking. If memory serves, in his email, he actually stated ‘PROK’ was for Persimmon Ralph O’Krieder.
Ralph Krieder found Pipher in a school yard in Cerro Gordo, IL back in the 80s. He said it was a giant tree that he could have walked under 40 years prior. He said it was definitely grafted and was probably a hold over from when the land was a farmstead from an earlier era. He was disappointed that he wasn’t able to witness when it was later taken down. He wanted to see how thick the ebony heartwood was on a timber form tree of that size. D. virginiana is in the ebony genera but typically has much less dark heartwood than its more well known relatives.
As for Pieper, I too initially thought that it might be a syntactic mix-up, but I believe John Gordon told me Pieper was from northern PA. I don’t have direct experience with Pieper, but the pictures I’ve seen of the fruit seem to support the two being distinct cultivars. They don’t look similar in my judgement.
Here are some photos that might be of interest.
This one is Early Golden.
Pipher
Prok
Ruby
This pic is of a hybrid called 400-9 that I took at Jerry’s old orchard last fall. This one was seedless.
9 Likes