Lets go back to the old gardenweb 11-13 years ago for a minute
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American persimmon size
13 years ago
It’s been a dry summer for many of us and so not the most favorable conditions for growing large persimmons, but I was wondering what some of the few of us here who grow American persimmons were achieving in terms of size of the fruit.
My largest persimmons this year so far have been about 2 1/4 inch diameter. The usually large Prok and Yates have been coming in less than 2 inches, and Keener, another large one, though still immature, smaller than that.
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13 years ago
My largest American persimmon fruits are ‘ruby’, ‘pipher’, and ‘evelyn’. All 3 of these are slightly over two inches. ‘Pipher’ is barrel-shaped or elongated. All three of these varieties are more yellowish in color - skin and flesh compared to 'early golden, ‘meader’ ‘yates’, and ‘john rick’ which are darker orange. Out of all the ones I have fruiting so far the variety ‘blue’ has the most reddish flesh but is not as firm as most others. I dont notice a lot of differences in flavor among these though ‘early golden’ would likely be my favorite if I had to choose one based on flavor, color, and firmness. ‘Blue’ fruits need to set a day or two after dropping to lose all astringency.
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hemnancy
13 years ago
The wild ones I remember as a kid in Texas were only about an inch. I’m growing some seedling ones but am wondering how large your trees were before they started to bear fruit as I am still waiting… one is now over my head slightly.
I did learn that I can make tea from the leaves so I harvest some in fall so I get something from growing the trees.
(Describe the typical American bedroom...)Area Rug - Persimmon/red
creekweb
Original Author
13 years ago
Hemnancy:
As you remember, wild seedling persimmons are most often no larger than an inch in diameter. Just when a seedling persimmon starts to bear will vary some and is more closely related to the age of the tree than its size, but I would say 5 or 6 years would be typical.
Shane11:
The size that you have been attaining on your Evelyn and Ruby is impressive; mine are little more than half that diameter. The conditions there may be particularly conducive to growing larger persimmons. Makes me wonder how my larger persimmon variety would do for you - email me if you’d like some scions.
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Tony
13 years ago
Early golden seem likes the best tasting American persimmon, but how large is the fruit? I have heard meader supposed to taste pretty good too.
Tony
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alexander3_gw
13 years ago
Creekweb,
If I read your message right, Prok is not your largest? Which variety is 2 14/4 inches?
Alex
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creekweb
Original Author
13 years ago
Early Golden has medium sized fruit for me. My largest persimmons come from an as yet unnamed variety.
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organic_mescalito
11 years ago
Creekweb, have you found any more information on your large fruiting persimmon? Who bred this variety? I had a few fruits survive the squirrels last year, they were tasty! Large, attractive foliage makes this plant a winner as a landscape tree as well.
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organic_mescalito
11 years ago
Creekweb, would it be 100-46?
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creekweb
Original Author
11 years ago
That one hasn’t yet been named as far as I know but is referred to with increasing familiarity recently by persimmon growers here and elsewhere by the seedling number Jerry Lehman assigned to it which is indeed 100-46. It dose make a nice landscape specimen and the fruit is plentiful and tasty.
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skyjs
11 years ago
Ruby is the biggest US persimmon I’ve eaten. Is 100-46 early, mid, or late? We can really only reliably grow early ones here. Anyone care to describe the taste?
Thanks,
John S
PDX OR
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creekweb
Original Author
11 years ago
100-46 has a long season that starts before Yates (which is considered an early ripening one) but after the very early ones like NC-10. Flavor and consistency are good but IMO not as good as the very best varieties. The orange ones can be picked early and ripened off the tree.
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cousinfloyd
11 years ago
Why is there so much emphasis on size with American persimmons anyways? I may have asked something similar before, but what do those of you who grow American persimmons use them for? I like to eat them fresh, but I like the bite-size, mostly seedless ones best for fresh eating. The only other thing I really ever do with them (although I’d love to find more good uses for them) is to make persimmon pudding, but if they’re going to all be pulped together then why worry about the size of individual fruits? And surely larger fruits are at least somewhat more likely to go splat when they fall from the tree.
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creekweb
Original Author
11 years ago
The breeding efforts for American persimmon are proceeding along two different tracks - one to produce clear and plentiful pulp primarily for pudding but also for a number of other products and the other for fresh eating. It is for this second purpose that breeders are seeking larger sized fruit.
Part of the reason is the aesthetics or visual appeal of the fruit. While small fruits in groups can be visually appealing, this quality is diminished when the individual fruits are isolated, and the delicate nature of persimmon skin requires they be to prevent damage. Picture an isolated grape…can make you just want to throw it away as residue.
Part of the reason is to offset the presence of seeds and increase the pulp to seed ratio. It means more edible fruit for the work of eating. This is a dessert fruit after all and the going needs to be easy!
Part of the reason is the paradigm set by the persimmon’s very successful Asian brother. Comparison to the kaki, a major player in world markets, naturally has the breeder questioning, “why can’t you be like your brother?” and so seeks a larger fruit.
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cousinfloyd
11 years ago
Creekweb, thanks for the very informative response. Selecting for better pulp to seed ratio makes a lot of sense, and I can see the desire to want to compete with Asian persimmons.
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eskota
11 years ago
They grow wild here, and are half-dollar size or smaller. Totally inedible until they’re frosted and fall off the tree. If you beat the raccoons to them, and don’t mind picking off the leaves and twigs, they are much sweeter and IMO better flavored than asian ones. Of course, there are more seeds than pulp.
I was unaware of any named varieties. Who sells these?"
More from 12 years ago
" American persimmon report
12 years ago
I thought there might be a few members that might find my ongoing trials with American persimmons interesting. I have decided to remove the varieties ‘pipher’, ‘golden supreme’, ‘blue’, and ‘evelyn’ from my plantings. All of these are productive but the quality of the fruits do not come close to ‘early golden’, ‘yates’, and ‘ruby’ which are exceptional in flavor and productive. I am very short on space so only the best can stay.
‘Meader’ is also a good variety if weak wooded but has the highest sugar content of all the ones I have tried. It is not seedless as claimed at least in my climate.
My ‘szukis’ which is going into its 5th or 6th year has been all male for me so have not gotten any fruit. I may be removing it soon since I do not need a male tree.
I have planted others such as ‘dollywood’, ‘craggs’, ‘weber’, ‘wabash’, ‘morris burton’, but none have fruited yet. I will be planting ‘elmo’ this spring.
I also have ‘john rick’ but I cannot discern much if any difference between it and ‘early golden’. It is a good variety.
‘Blue’ and ‘szukis’ make especially ornamental trees and I imagine ‘wabash’ will as well.
Of my 3 favorites so far ‘yates’ ripens first sometimes starting at the end of August followed closely by ‘early golden’ Their ripening overlaps quite a bit. The fruit of ‘yates’ is slightly larger than ‘early golden’ and the flavor and flesh color of these 2 are very similar though ‘early golden’ flesh is more clear. ‘Ruby’ has the largest fruits of these and is a later ripening variety extending the season into November and sometimes into December. The flesh color of ‘ruby’ compared to the other 2 is more yellowish/orange. The other 2 being darker orange.
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Comments (5)
chills71
12 years ago
Ive wanted Szukis for a while, but it seems to sell out before I even see its offered each year (I swear it is sold out as soon as the new prices are listed at nolin river…)
~Chills
I planted Elmo at my (ex) Mother in Law’s 2 years back. I did get visitation rights in the divorce, though.
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wlh8723
12 years ago
I would like to try a few of these in Georgia. I would graft a scion onto a native that is growing on the edge of a pine clearing. Can you or someone you know spare two or three bud sticks? I can send you a self adressed bubble envelope and postage stamps."
Back to oikos for a second
In 1915 persimmons were being investigated
15 years ago on gardenweb
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What are your favorite American persimmon cultivars? (taste-wise)
15 years ago
Hi,
Thanks to Dennis, from Michigan (denninmi)(cultivar: ‘Meader’), and finding a few wild growing specimens in the woods, I finally got to find out how American persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) tastes. I was impressed, particularly with the ‘Meader’ (at least) over the wild, smaller ones I found in the woods in the late fall.
I’ve been reading, essentially, every single article I can find that refers to common American persimmon cultivars and most of the information found online seems to be unoriginal, coming from a small hand-full of original opinions, mostly completely senseless in terms of distinction: i.e. one cultivar is said to be “very sweet”, whereas another “taste: excellent”, and yet another “delicious”. So, basically the comparisons between cultivars found online are nearly invalid.
I found personal testimonies on this site of greater value. According to these:
*Some find ‘Meader’ to retain a little astringency, even when ripe; this is confirmed by Lee Reich (who I later contacted to confirm his preference for ‘Szukis’).
*Some find ‘Wabash’ to be better then a number of popular cultivars, consistent with one site which states this cultivar is sweeter then Garretson.
*Some find ‘Szukis’ (cf: Reich, et al) to be the best tasting.
*And there are other opinions on this and other forums…
So, please post your opinion comments being sure to list the different cultivars you’ve tried to show comparison.
Popular cultivars, supposedly chosen for taste: John Rick, Yates (Juhl), Szukis, Wabash, Garretson, Morris, Killen, Goldensupreme. I’d be curious to know about ‘Prok’, as it is said to be as large as 3" and originally found in NY state.
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brandon7 TN_zone7
15 years ago
I bet that there aren’t that many people that have tried and compared a large number of these. Also, taste will vary considerably with different tasters, how ripe the fruit was, where it was grown, etc. My point is, a thorough comparison may not be readily available. You may have to narrow your search down to a few that look promising and give them a try.
One thing you might try is to call and talk to a supplier like Nolin River Nut Tree Nursery. They grow a pretty good variety, and so should be more familiar than most with many different varieties.
Another thing you might try if you are serious enough about the search is to contact Jerry Lehman, Martha Davis or someone with the Indiana Nut Growers Association. You can find out more about them at this link:
http://www.nutgrowers.org/Claypool%20orchard%202005.pdf
Here is a link that might be useful: Diospyros virginiana at Nolin River
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njbiology
Original Author
15 years ago
Hi Brandon,
I spoke to John at Nolin River (i’m going to order a ‘Szukis’ & ‘Morris Burton’, as well as ‘Sunflower’ & ‘Wells’ Pawpaw) - that place seems the place to order native persimmons.
John recommended the above ‘Morris Burton’ as the sweetest (according to many of his customers). According to a post by Lucky on this forum, ‘Morris Burton’ is considered one of the sweetest by reputation.
I’ll go with those for now. How can I keep I maintain the trees (pruned) small, without greatly shortening its life - I have a feeling it will weaken the tree, maybe cause the trunk to mature with a bonsai effect (disproportionately large, expanded trunk). I’d like to keep them 10’ max."
Sometimes rare persimmon can be located here
Or here
Or here
Morris Burton is discussed here in more detail