looks just like mine. pretty distinctive fruit. my two Prok trees are genetically identical but there are noteworthy differences in the fruit from each. They are about 150 ft from each other. There are site differences that could account for this. Rootstock effects would be the other likely explanation.
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One thing I remember from my research on that a very long time ago was that the male was just as important as the female in fruit quality. Thatâs why I bought Szukis scions from John Gordon in upstate NY many years ago. It was highly rated as a male that would impart good flavor.
John S
PDX OR
I went to the fancy grocery store in my neighborhood to buy prestige varieties of apples that Iâd never tried before. They were uninspiring. I noticed that the apples that I grew carefully, paying attention to soil and orchard practices and picked only when ripe, tasted much better than any of them. I agree with you that a really good apple or persimmon is more impressive on a rating scale than a disappointing one, for that reason. Itâs a better measure of what it could be.
John S
PDX OR
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Anyone know anything about golden supreme mentioned here as a very old variety? We may want to download and attach the document if we have not already somewhere. The information is quickly dissappearing.
@parkwaydrive did mention it earlier. We have very basic information at this time. He does have one fruiting.
Interesting. Iâve wondered if the male pollinator makes a difference in the quality of Asian PVNA varieties, which are generally seeded to reduce astringency.
I donât have any male Americans here (except possibly root suckers from seedling rootstock) and I donât want seeds, so Iâm just gonna have to live with the flavor of the unseeded fruits. Itâs bad enough that my new PVNAs are producing seeds in Kassandra.
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Golden Supreme is a later season cultivar. From what Iâve read, it appeared in the grower discourse around the 1950s, putting it in the second wave of legacy cultivars. At my place, itâs similar to Ruby and Miller in fruit characteristics. Ripening order here in central Indiana is Ruby, Miller, and then Golden Supreme. They all make nice fruit, though. Ruby and Early Golden are the ones I look forward to for fresh eating. Unfortunately, there are two Ruby cultivars. This is the big Ruby, not the little Ruby mentioned in the old literature.
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when does (big) Ruby ripen at your place?
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There are a couple golden supreme in daweâs arboretum.
Nice fruit to my taste. Nice texture, color and relatively low seed count. They also have a early golden that has nice fruit.
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Late September through most of October. I like its extended ripening period; pick a handful every day before work to snack on during my commute during that time. Itâs one of those characteristics that stands in contrast between commercial grower/breeder targets and what is desirable for a backyard/cottage scale grower. I donât need or want my fruit to drop all at once or color up before itâs ripe.
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These Compton types are not only rare but little is known about them. We know some are not 100% American based on the names âNikitaâ, âRosseayankaâ we know those are kaki hybrids.
I dedicated a thread just to them and came up with very little information as a result. DEC - DONALD EUGENE COMPTON PERSIMMON Varities .
@OckooMicrofarm came up with these
DEC Improved Rosseayanka
DEC Valeene Queen
DEC Wannabe #2
DEC Wannabe #3
DEC Double-Ziptie
DEC Goliath
DEC King Crimson
DEC Sugar Hill (Donâs current personal favorite?)
DEC Nikita x Thor F4, F5, F6
DEC Nikita x Thor C5 (male and female flowering
And we know of these
DEC Wannabe
DEC Double-Ziptie
DEC Goliath
DEC King Crimson
DEC Money Maker â from the breeding work of Donald E. Compton (DEC) in southern Indiana. Excellent fruit.
We also know of these
DEC Donâs Earliest
Brace #1
Brace #2.
DEC Large Morris Burton cross
@Buzzferver @disc4tw hopefully you know of the others that exist and maybe we can preserve them before they dissappear.
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According to North Point efforts are being made to preserve some of John Hershey persimmons.
âJohn Hersheyâ one of the nations earliest food forest visionaries. The John Hershey nursery is currently under threat of development, making each of these seeds wildly valuable. We were very fortunate to be given permission to harvest seed from the remanent of his nursery in Downingtown, PAâ
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A little history and lots of useful information.
"Prok
Thought by many to be an Asian/American hybrid due to the fruit size being 30% larger than other American cultivars, âProkâ is a pure 90 chromosome American persimmon from the mother âPipher.â The name comes from the acronym for âPersimmon Ralph Kreiderâ who originally found âPipherâ in Northern Illinois. âProkâ has the highest flesh to seed ratio of any pollinated 90 chromosome persimmon and at 8 fruits to the pound, is thought to be the most viable American cultivar for commercial production. For Northern climates, âProkâ is one of the earliest dropping cultivars and is well known to ripen before winter sets in.
Hardiness: Proven in zone 5b
Color: Peach to light orange
Size: Very large 2.5âł-3âł
Weight: 2 oz per fruit
Flavor: Mild, delicious
Ripening window for zone 5b: September 20th-October 1.
Parentage: Pipher x ?
John Rick
âJohn Rickâ was selected by J.C. McDaniel (University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign) in 1958 and still receives widespread acclaim among persimmon growers for its large, handsome fruits. The orangey-yellow fruits are blushed red and are up to 2 inches in diameter. The skin and flesh are tender and flavorful. Its small calyx does not puncture other fruits in storage and combined with its overall attractiveness, âJohn Rickâ is a prime cultivar for fresh marketing. It ripens in early October. A five-year-old grafted tree often yields 40+ pounds of fruit, making âJohn Rickâ one of the highest yielding cultivars to date. Seedlings of âJohn Rickâ have been shown to be very vigorous and precocious.
Hardiness: Proven in zone 5b
Color: Orange-Yellow
Size: Large 2âł
Weight: 1.5 oz per fruit
Flavor: Mild, delicious
Ripening for zone 5b: Oct 1- Oct 15.
Parentage: âKillenâ x âWilliamâ
Juhl
âJuhlâ is one of the best pulping persimmons available, as it falls freely from the tree without its calyx and has a large flesh/seed ratio, often producing around 70% pulp. The fruit is large to very large and one of the earliest to ripen, usually in early-mid September in Indiana, but occasionally in late August. The fruit color is clear yellow with a slight red blush and heavy bloom. âJuhlâ has tender skin and flesh without astringency when ripe. She is a regular heavy bearer with an average of 10 fruits to the pound.
Hardiness: Proven in zone 5b
Color: Light/Clear Yellow
Size: Large 2âł-2.5âł
Weight: 1.5 oz per fruit
Flavor: Mild, delicious
Ripening for zone 5b: September 15th
Parentage: Unknown (probably a wild selection)
Morris Burton
âMorris Burtonâ was discovered by cows in Indiana. The Burtons had a large farm covered with persimmon trees, but all the animal trails led to this tree. When the owners tasted the fruit, they found out why it was so popular. The fruit is small and the flesh a beautiful red, but all who have tasted this one agree that it has the best flavor of all. J.C. McDaniels once said: ââMorris Burtonâ is the finest flavored persimmon under Illinois and Indiana conditions.â The sugar content is so high that you can cut the sugar added in recipes by 50% and get the required results. The foliage turns bright yellow in the fall and is very ornamental looking. It is precocious and bares large annual crops. 25 fruits to the pound.
Hardiness: Proven in zone 5b
Color: Dark orange
Size: Medium Small 1âł-1.5âł
Weight: .6oz/fruit
Flavor: Rich, Brown Sugar, Exceptional
Ripening for zone 5b: October 15th
Parentage: Wild selection"
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Juhl is Yates.
That seems like a weird story about Prok which was supposedly bred by George Slate at Geneva. I hadnât heard that acronym before.
Korp might be âKrazy Old Red Persimmonâ 
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Clark, the description of Morris Burton does not match original descriptions published nearly 100 years ago. Red color is a problem. Morris Burton is described as more âyellowâ than most persimmons.
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Yes, Juhl = Yates. Itâs actually bigger than Prok in my limited experience. There are lots of references to 3â diameter Prok fruits and Ive yet to see one over 2â.
I think @parkwaydrive was the source here on the forum of Prok having been an acronym. If memory serves, he was saying that John Gordon was really the âbreederâ of Prok, and that he and Slate collaborated so thoroughly that their work was more or less a unified effort. Id not heard of âPipherâ before, thinking it might have been a reference to a more well known older cultivar, âPieperâ, but apparently not.
Funny how stories get reshaped and abbreviated in the telling and retelling.
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Thought i would find out more about pipher. Since we are all way down the rabbit hole anyway, we might as well explore further!
"
Pipher- High fruit production-Hardy Central Illinois Strain
This strain was collected from the original Pipher tree in a small town in central Illinois. This extremely large tree is over 2 ft. in diameter and produces vigorous seedlings. Fruit production is very high. This strain is most likely the result of a chance seedling from a local population of persimmons that are not from cultivated selections. When I visited the tree many years ago the tree appeared to be the only one in the area but it still had fruit meaning it was possibly self fertile or I could not find where the male tree was!
All of the seedlings I have at my farm are very good yielders. Many of the male trees were strong growers as well. Definitely it was a good wild seed source from the small amount of seedlings that I âtestedâ. For a while, I liked this seed strain so much I ordered a lot of them from Ralph Kreider who had access to the original tree. From what he told me, the owners of the tree, liked having him clean up the fruit on their lawn. I grew and sold the seedlings under the Pipher name. It was one seed source that never had winter damage. Many of the seedlings showed large leaves as well. I kept some of the seedlings and put them in a single row partly in the shade of northern pecans on a sandy hillside. Many of them exhibit the black coloration on the skin of the fruit which seems to add a caramel type flavor to the fruit. Most ripen starting in mid to late October and goes through December. Fruit often stays in the tree into January and drops slowly.
Because of the large fruit sizes and the cold hardiness, this is a good seed source for the northern form of the American persimmon as well as developing cold hardy American persimmons and more vigorous forms of American Persimmon"
Some people breed persimmons for cold hardiness using âEarly Golden, John Rick, Yates, Killen, Beaver, Pipher, and Morris Burton, among others.â
Lets go back to the old gardenweb 11-13 years ago for a minute
"
American persimmon size
13 years ago
Itâs been a dry summer for many of us and so not the most favorable conditions for growing large persimmons, but I was wondering what some of the few of us here who grow American persimmons were achieving in terms of size of the fruit.
My largest persimmons this year so far have been about 2 1/4 inch diameter. The usually large Prok and Yates have been coming in less than 2 inches, and Keener, another large one, though still immature, smaller than that.
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13 years ago
My largest American persimmon fruits are ârubyâ, âpipherâ, and âevelynâ. All 3 of these are slightly over two inches. âPipherâ is barrel-shaped or elongated. All three of these varieties are more yellowish in color - skin and flesh compared to 'early golden, âmeaderâ âyatesâ, and âjohn rickâ which are darker orange. Out of all the ones I have fruiting so far the variety âblueâ has the most reddish flesh but is not as firm as most others. I dont notice a lot of differences in flavor among these though âearly goldenâ would likely be my favorite if I had to choose one based on flavor, color, and firmness. âBlueâ fruits need to set a day or two after dropping to lose all astringency.
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hemnancy
13 years ago
The wild ones I remember as a kid in Texas were only about an inch. Iâm growing some seedling ones but am wondering how large your trees were before they started to bear fruit as I am still waiting⌠one is now over my head slightly.
I did learn that I can make tea from the leaves so I harvest some in fall so I get something from growing the trees.
(Describe the typical American bedroom...)Area Rug - Persimmon/red
creekweb
Original Author
13 years ago
Hemnancy:
As you remember, wild seedling persimmons are most often no larger than an inch in diameter. Just when a seedling persimmon starts to bear will vary some and is more closely related to the age of the tree than its size, but I would say 5 or 6 years would be typical.
Shane11:
The size that you have been attaining on your Evelyn and Ruby is impressive; mine are little more than half that diameter. The conditions there may be particularly conducive to growing larger persimmons. Makes me wonder how my larger persimmon variety would do for you - email me if youâd like some scions.
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Tony
13 years ago
Early golden seem likes the best tasting American persimmon, but how large is the fruit? I have heard meader supposed to taste pretty good too.
Tony
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alexander3_gw
13 years ago
Creekweb,
If I read your message right, Prok is not your largest? Which variety is 2 14/4 inches?
Alex
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creekweb
Original Author
13 years ago
Early Golden has medium sized fruit for me. My largest persimmons come from an as yet unnamed variety.
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organic_mescalito
11 years ago
Creekweb, have you found any more information on your large fruiting persimmon? Who bred this variety? I had a few fruits survive the squirrels last year, they were tasty! Large, attractive foliage makes this plant a winner as a landscape tree as well.
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organic_mescalito
11 years ago
Creekweb, would it be 100-46?
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creekweb
Original Author
11 years ago
That one hasnât yet been named as far as I know but is referred to with increasing familiarity recently by persimmon growers here and elsewhere by the seedling number Jerry Lehman assigned to it which is indeed 100-46. It dose make a nice landscape specimen and the fruit is plentiful and tasty.
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skyjs
11 years ago
Ruby is the biggest US persimmon Iâve eaten. Is 100-46 early, mid, or late? We can really only reliably grow early ones here. Anyone care to describe the taste?
Thanks,
John S
PDX OR
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creekweb
Original Author
11 years ago
100-46 has a long season that starts before Yates (which is considered an early ripening one) but after the very early ones like NC-10. Flavor and consistency are good but IMO not as good as the very best varieties. The orange ones can be picked early and ripened off the tree.
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cousinfloyd
11 years ago
Why is there so much emphasis on size with American persimmons anyways? I may have asked something similar before, but what do those of you who grow American persimmons use them for? I like to eat them fresh, but I like the bite-size, mostly seedless ones best for fresh eating. The only other thing I really ever do with them (although Iâd love to find more good uses for them) is to make persimmon pudding, but if theyâre going to all be pulped together then why worry about the size of individual fruits? And surely larger fruits are at least somewhat more likely to go splat when they fall from the tree.
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creekweb
Original Author
11 years ago
The breeding efforts for American persimmon are proceeding along two different tracks - one to produce clear and plentiful pulp primarily for pudding but also for a number of other products and the other for fresh eating. It is for this second purpose that breeders are seeking larger sized fruit.
Part of the reason is the aesthetics or visual appeal of the fruit. While small fruits in groups can be visually appealing, this quality is diminished when the individual fruits are isolated, and the delicate nature of persimmon skin requires they be to prevent damage. Picture an isolated grapeâŚcan make you just want to throw it away as residue.
Part of the reason is to offset the presence of seeds and increase the pulp to seed ratio. It means more edible fruit for the work of eating. This is a dessert fruit after all and the going needs to be easy!
Part of the reason is the paradigm set by the persimmonâs very successful Asian brother. Comparison to the kaki, a major player in world markets, naturally has the breeder questioning, âwhy canât you be like your brother?â and so seeks a larger fruit.
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cousinfloyd
11 years ago
Creekweb, thanks for the very informative response. Selecting for better pulp to seed ratio makes a lot of sense, and I can see the desire to want to compete with Asian persimmons.
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eskota
11 years ago
They grow wild here, and are half-dollar size or smaller. Totally inedible until theyâre frosted and fall off the tree. If you beat the raccoons to them, and donât mind picking off the leaves and twigs, they are much sweeter and IMO better flavored than asian ones. Of course, there are more seeds than pulp.
I was unaware of any named varieties. Who sells these?"
More from 12 years ago
" American persimmon report
12 years ago
I thought there might be a few members that might find my ongoing trials with American persimmons interesting. I have decided to remove the varieties âpipherâ, âgolden supremeâ, âblueâ, and âevelynâ from my plantings. All of these are productive but the quality of the fruits do not come close to âearly goldenâ, âyatesâ, and ârubyâ which are exceptional in flavor and productive. I am very short on space so only the best can stay.
âMeaderâ is also a good variety if weak wooded but has the highest sugar content of all the ones I have tried. It is not seedless as claimed at least in my climate.
My âszukisâ which is going into its 5th or 6th year has been all male for me so have not gotten any fruit. I may be removing it soon since I do not need a male tree.
I have planted others such as âdollywoodâ, âcraggsâ, âweberâ, âwabashâ, âmorris burtonâ, but none have fruited yet. I will be planting âelmoâ this spring.
I also have âjohn rickâ but I cannot discern much if any difference between it and âearly goldenâ. It is a good variety.
âBlueâ and âszukisâ make especially ornamental trees and I imagine âwabashâ will as well.
Of my 3 favorites so far âyatesâ ripens first sometimes starting at the end of August followed closely by âearly goldenâ Their ripening overlaps quite a bit. The fruit of âyatesâ is slightly larger than âearly goldenâ and the flavor and flesh color of these 2 are very similar though âearly goldenâ flesh is more clear. âRubyâ has the largest fruits of these and is a later ripening variety extending the season into November and sometimes into December. The flesh color of ârubyâ compared to the other 2 is more yellowish/orange. The other 2 being darker orange.
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chills71
12 years ago
Ive wanted Szukis for a while, but it seems to sell out before I even see its offered each year (I swear it is sold out as soon as the new prices are listed at nolin riverâŚ)
~Chills
I planted Elmo at my (ex) Mother in Lawâs 2 years back. I did get visitation rights in the divorce, though.
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wlh8723
12 years ago
I would like to try a few of these in Georgia. I would graft a scion onto a native that is growing on the edge of a pine clearing. Can you or someone you know spare two or three bud sticks? I can send you a self adressed bubble envelope and postage stamps."
Back to oikos for a second
In 1915 persimmons were being investigated
15 years ago on gardenweb
"
What are your favorite American persimmon cultivars? (taste-wise)
15 years ago
Hi,
Thanks to Dennis, from Michigan (denninmi)(cultivar: âMeaderâ), and finding a few wild growing specimens in the woods, I finally got to find out how American persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) tastes. I was impressed, particularly with the âMeaderâ (at least) over the wild, smaller ones I found in the woods in the late fall.
Iâve been reading, essentially, every single article I can find that refers to common American persimmon cultivars and most of the information found online seems to be unoriginal, coming from a small hand-full of original opinions, mostly completely senseless in terms of distinction: i.e. one cultivar is said to be âvery sweetâ, whereas another âtaste: excellentâ, and yet another âdeliciousâ. So, basically the comparisons between cultivars found online are nearly invalid.
I found personal testimonies on this site of greater value. According to these:
*Some find âMeaderâ to retain a little astringency, even when ripe; this is confirmed by Lee Reich (who I later contacted to confirm his preference for âSzukisâ).
*Some find âWabashâ to be better then a number of popular cultivars, consistent with one site which states this cultivar is sweeter then Garretson.
*Some find âSzukisâ (cf: Reich, et al) to be the best tasting.
*And there are other opinions on this and other forumsâŚ
So, please post your opinion comments being sure to list the different cultivars youâve tried to show comparison.
Popular cultivars, supposedly chosen for taste: John Rick, Yates (Juhl), Szukis, Wabash, Garretson, Morris, Killen, Goldensupreme. Iâd be curious to know about âProkâ, as it is said to be as large as 3" and originally found in NY state.
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brandon7 TN_zone7
15 years ago
I bet that there arenât that many people that have tried and compared a large number of these. Also, taste will vary considerably with different tasters, how ripe the fruit was, where it was grown, etc. My point is, a thorough comparison may not be readily available. You may have to narrow your search down to a few that look promising and give them a try.
One thing you might try is to call and talk to a supplier like Nolin River Nut Tree Nursery. They grow a pretty good variety, and so should be more familiar than most with many different varieties.
Another thing you might try if you are serious enough about the search is to contact Jerry Lehman, Martha Davis or someone with the Indiana Nut Growers Association. You can find out more about them at this link:
http://www.nutgrowers.org/Claypool%20orchard%202005.pdf
Here is a link that might be useful: Diospyros virginiana at Nolin River
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njbiology
Original Author
15 years ago
Hi Brandon,
I spoke to John at Nolin River (iâm going to order a âSzukisâ & âMorris Burtonâ, as well as âSunflowerâ & âWellsâ Pawpaw) - that place seems the place to order native persimmons.
John recommended the above âMorris Burtonâ as the sweetest (according to many of his customers). According to a post by Lucky on this forum, âMorris Burtonâ is considered one of the sweetest by reputation.
Iâll go with those for now. How can I keep I maintain the trees (pruned) small, without greatly shortening its life - I have a feeling it will weaken the tree, maybe cause the trunk to mature with a bonsai effect (disproportionately large, expanded trunk). Iâd like to keep them 10â max."
Sometimes rare persimmon can be located here
Or here
Or here
Morris Burton is discussed here in more detail