Who's Growing Improved American Persimmons? Suggestions welcome!

[clarkinks]

@hobilus @Fusion_power @snowflake
Does the description below sound accurate?
They say “Yates have very large fruits for a native persimmon, 2 1/2” in diameter. Ripening late August- September. Very productive. Self fertile. Discovered by Ed Yates of Cincinnati, OH. Yates won first place at the Mitchell Persimmon Festival in 1983. Height 20’ Space 15’ circle Zones 5-8."

Also

"

Yates/Juhl Persimmon

(Diospyros virginiana) Zone 5-9

Yates/Juhl Persimmon produces very large (2.5") fruit. Flavor is outstanding with a sugar sweet flavor with a hint of apricot. Fruit drops when they are fully ripe, astringency free with soft melting flesh. Very productive and seedless if grown without a pollinator.

Fruit Drop: Late August-September"

Yates/Juhl Persimmon

[clarkinks]

This site has some interesting american persimmons Products - American Persimmon - Grimo Nut Nursery

" Campbell NC10’ American Persimmon Graft

‘Campbell NC10’, a seedling of ‘Early Golden’, was introduced by Doug Campbell a plant enthusiast from Niagara. The fruit begins to ripen by mid September and continues until late October. The delicious oval fruit is medium size and is seedless in the absence of a male tree. For best results, protect the graft with a mound of soil around it for the first 2 winters. Suited for zones 6-8.

‘Gordon’ American Persimmon Graft

‘Gordon’ was selected by John Gordon from the Buffalo, NY area. It was a seedling growing in the Geneva Experimental Station test plot. The delicious oval fruit is medium/large with a firmer texture than most. The fruit ripens slowly from early October until November. Protect the graft for the first 2 winters with a mound of soil well above the graft especially for zone 6. Suited for zones 6-8.

‘Peiper’ American Persimmon Graft

‘Peiper’ is a selection from Pennsylvania. It is a very heavy annual producer of medium sized round fruit. It normally ripens some fruit by mid-September and continues over several weeks. Suited for zones 6-8.

‘Szukis’ American Persimmon Graft

‘Szukis’ is probably a seedling of ‘Early Golden’ sold to Lydia Szukis, a master gardener in Niagara. The medium round fruit ripens early to mid October. This odd tree has been known to sport male branches that also produce a cherry size fruit. Suited for zones 6-8. Protect it for the first 2 winters with a mound of soil above the graft union, especially in zone 6.

‘Yates’ American Persimmon Graft

‘Yates’ is a very productive tree from Ohio. The soft sweet fruit is large and begins to ripen in early October. Suited for zones 6-8. Protect the graft for the first 2 winters with a mound of soil above the graft for zone 6."

Garretson though not mentioned on that site is wildly popular even with sites like starks

“Hardy all the way up to zone 4! The Garretson American Persimmon is a seedling of Early Golden, making it a relatively early ripener and it has been noted to ripen as far north as Geneva NY, and Grant MI. The small to medium-sized fruit is a rich orange color, soft with good flavor and small seeds. The Garretson American Persimmon is known for its high yields.”

Pay attention to pollination “Selected for its large, sweet and delicious, deep-orange fruit, Garretson American Persimmon is also prized for its striking, orange-yellow fall foliage. While partially self-fertile, planting Garretson with a Male Persimmon will ensure heavy crops.” - One green World Nursery

[snowflake]

@clarkinks

Does the description below sound accurate?
They say “Yates…

I lost Yates during the year that hit -30Fish so I haven’t tasted it yet. It was lost across multiple trees but there could have been other factors. I had heard that the flavor or aroma might be more intense than some. Maybe someone said “perfumey”. Maybe that just means a less dull flavor. I don’t know. I regrafted it last year.

[Lucky_P]

‘Korp’ is a sibling of ‘Prok’(spelled backwards); both arising from Dr. Slate’s breeding efforts at Geneva NY.

[snowflake]

@Lucky_P

‘Korp’ is a sibling of ‘Prok’

Yes, but that story is too boring to pass down over the generations

I have a seedling that I have named “Krap”. I figure that is at least a bit descriptive.

[JCW]

Good one!
I’ll look forward to trading for it in the future.
I’ll plant it next to one named “Loada”.

[jrd51]

@Lucky_P

‘Korp’ is a sibling of ‘Prok’(spelled backwards); both arising from Dr. Slate’s breeding efforts at Geneva NY.

I can’t find it now but I thought I read here once again the ridiculous assertion (maybe subsequently deleted?) that Prok may be a hybrid of D. virginiana x D. kaki. Reminded where Prok originated, I’m compelled to point out that Korp would be a hybrid too. So that would make two unheralded F1 inter-specific hybrids to stand alongside Rosseyanka and Mikkusu / JT-02.

Well, once again I call BS. If you think I’m wrong, then please provide any credible documentation you might possess showing that Dr. Slate in Geneva NY was even trying to hybridize D. Kaki.

Routinely we see marketing hype that misrepresents the heritage of trees. But we should all keep our heads on straight: No credible F1 inter-specific Virginiana x Kaki hybrids exist in general circulation other than Rosseyanka and Mikkusu.

[clarkinks]

@jrd51

Any large fruited variety like korp or prok is rumored to be part kaki but we know they are pure American.

[armyofda12mnkeys]

Can they test the dna of a few larger fruited Americans to prove it? Geneva Long also looks like Saiju so wonder if thats a hybrid. Who does testing like this? Any universities (like KSU with pawpaws) do persimmon research?

[Lucky_P]

Savanna Institute has been doing some work on the persimmon genome, but IDK where they are in that project…I sent materials from several known 90 & 60-chromosome persimmons, a couple of years back.

I’ve seen the claims that Prok and Keener are kaki x virginiana hybrids. There is nothing about either that says ‘hybrid’ to me.
Although the claim about Keener is that it is a hybrid bred by Luther Burbank, Jerry Lehman went through Burbank’s writings and never found anything indicating that he’d had any success hybridizing D.kaki and D.virginiana.

[zendog]

There are lots of sources for rootstocks for persimmons and I think a few places offer seedlings from trees they’ve selected as providing particularly good rootstocks. Not quite the same as clonal rootstocks, but at least they are probably better than the genetic crapshoot of ordering random Virginiana seedlings.

Red Fern Farm has a variety called Wapello that Tom notes as making exceptional seedling rootstocks. They don’t offer seedlings of this tree themselves, but I was in touch with him earlier this year to see if he would have any seed and was able to buy some from him today. If anyone is interested you should reach out to him via email, facebook, etc. since they don’t list these seeds on their site. They do have seeds listed on their site of a few other varieties as well and in general their price for persimmon seeds is very reasonable.

Here is his description of Wapello:
Very late ripening—November/December—of small fruit, but extremely heavy bearing and fruit hangs on the tree all winter, with a little bit dropping every day until March or April. A great wildlife tree, but also the seedlings make especially vigorous rootstocks. Grafted trees on these rootstocks are twice as productive compared to grafted trees on “ordinary” rootstocks.

[hobilus]

@jrd51

Dr. Slate in Geneva NY was even trying to hybridize D. Kaki.

A bunch of people tried and failed. They wrote of their efforts too. Burbank tried intently. My understanding is that Slate WAS trying his hand at creating an F-1, as was Gordon. Geneva Long, a Gordon selection was also heralded as a possible hybrid for a time. The mechanism preventing embryo viability was poorly understood, and the efforts made involved blunt mass selection. I dont have sources, but I can say the concept was freely discussed by Gordon. Lee Reich covers it a bit in his book (which I lent out and no longer own)

[JohnS]

To most, garretson tastes much better and is bigger.

[parkwaydrive]

Don’t have much experience with Juhl, but I’ve seen quite a few 2 to 2.5 inch Prok fruits. They can be quite variable year to year, and I suspect probably even more variable by location. John Gordon told me that Pipher was the seed parent of Prok. I have both here (right next to each other), and there is definitely a family resemblance. In the acronym, the (P) was ‘Persimmon’, the (R) was for ‘Ralph’, and the ‘K’ was for ‘Krieder’. Guess he needed a vowel and ‘I’ wasn’t to his liking. If memory serves, in his email, he actually stated ‘PROK’ was for Persimmon Ralph O’Krieder.

Ralph Krieder found Pipher in a school yard in Cerro Gordo, IL back in the 80s. He said it was a giant tree that he could have walked under 40 years prior. He said it was definitely grafted and was probably a hold over from when the land was a farmstead from an earlier era. He was disappointed that he wasn’t able to witness when it was later taken down. He wanted to see how thick the ebony heartwood was on a timber form tree of that size. D. virginiana is in the ebony genera but typically has much less dark heartwood than its more well known relatives.

As for Pieper, I too initially thought that it might be a syntactic mix-up, but I believe John Gordon told me Pieper was from northern PA. I don’t have direct experience with Pieper, but the pictures I’ve seen of the fruit seem to support the two being distinct cultivars. They don’t look similar in my judgement.

Here are some photos that might be of interest.
This one is Early Golden.

Pipher

Prok

Ruby

This pic is of a hybrid called 400-9 that I took at Jerry’s old orchard last fall. This one was seedless.

[clarkinks]

@parkwaydrive

Thanks for this information! Sounds like these descriptions were pretty good https://canopyfm.com/nursery/persimmon-bare-root/

" Prok
Thought by many to be an Asian/American hybrid due to the fruit size being 30% larger than other American cultivars, ‘Prok’ is a pure 90 chromosome American persimmon from the mother ‘Pipher.’ The name comes from the acronym for ‘Persimmon Ralph Kreider’ who originally found ‘Pipher’ in Northern Illinois. ‘Prok’ has the highest flesh to seed ratio of any pollinated 90 chromosome persimmon and at 8 fruits to the pound, is thought to be the most viable American cultivar for commercial production. For Northern climates, ‘Prok’ is one of the earliest dropping cultivars and is well known to ripen before winter sets in.

Hardiness: Proven in zone 5b
Color: Peach to light orange
Size: Very large 2.5″-3″
Weight: 2 oz per fruit
Flavor: Mild, delicious
Ripening window for zone 5b: September 20th-October 1.
Parentage: Pipher x ?"

[Matt_in_Pennsylvania]

Garretson ???

Does anyone have any photos of ripe Garretson persimmons they can share? It seems hard to find any images of this variety which is otherwise highly regarded in the literature.

Today (May 22, 2024)… for the umpteenth time… I attempted to graft scions of this variety into my collection…

[ramv]

I’m quite surprised that there is barely any mention of Geneva red anywhere! I’ve heard that it is 3-4 weeks earlier than even Prok or H118 and quite good.
In my climate, the late varieties aren’t good, I’d rather be harvesting kakis late in the season.
The only person who even mentions it isn’t even in the US. @Mikatani.

I have just added it this year.

[snowflake]

@ramv

barely any mention of Geneva red anywhere

From https://growingfruit.org/t/jerry-lehmans-orchard-fall-2017/12728/22 Not a ringing endorsement. Maybe it could do better elsewhere.

@Barkslip

Geneva Red __ astringent when ripe. Only an ornamental. I wouldn’t eat a second one ever.

[Mikatani]

As far as I know Geneva Red has been around for a very long time. It’s been in my orchard for about 20 years so it is certainly not one of the new cultivars and certainly not mistaken with one of the newer cultivars. It is by far the earliest ripening american persimmon in my orchard. The first fruits ripen about 3 weeks ahead of Early Jewel. Geneva Red starts to ripen here just after mid august while Early jewel starts just before mid September. Prok is more like end of September…
Geneva Red is very sweet with good caramel flavor and it looses astringency immediately. It doesn’t need to be dead soft before you can eat it, it is perfectly edible without any hint of astringency even when it is just a bit soft. It is not a large fruit… Prok on the other hand is a large fruit but less sweet and almost no recognisable caramel aroma. It resembles an Asian persimmon or hybrid persimmon although it definitely isn’t… Tastewise I much prefer Geneva Red over Prok.

[Sprout_It]

What other varieties do you have? Any other reviews you’d like to share? Your username says you are zone 8. Where about do you live?
Thanks!
@Mikatani