Oh, I didn’t see mention of F-100 being a parent of 100-46 in harbin’s post, so I didn’t understand. F-100 should be a fruiting male, but I don’t know enough about it beyond that.
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It sounds to me like @SMC_zone6 knows what im saying already as well and much better than i do
It sounds like if im reading that right, they had plans for Szukis X F-100, and maybe those plans were 100-46, but i dont know thats any more than speculation. They wanted f-100 for those male flowers!
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Are you talking about 100-46 parents, or persimmon geneaology in general? We aren’t learning much beyond what is in the Claypool spreadsheet unfortunately.
It seemed @harbin 's point was to question whether he had the correct F-100.
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Here is another thread discussing deer candy and the number associated with it
We know F-100 has beautiful children. See Cliff Englands description of wonderful
Wonderful – Late ripening from October to November, the largest fruit to come out of the England’s selection of new cultivars for production and taste. Very large fruit, progeny of Yates/Juhl X F-100 male, tree of medium size with spreading growth habits. It would be good for wildlife food source late in the fall or for a late ripening cultivar to add to any collection for pulp production.
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The issue with breeding using pure males is that you dont know what fruit it would produce genetically cause it only produces pollen, xy male. A female with male flowers is still a female, and so is it’s pollen is xx, and you know what its fruit is like and the traits it brings to the random recombination of genes. So now you know for sure the quality potential of both parents AND you know its a girl, at least and wont waste time growing out boys.
This is great when you have time to evaluate new plants and graft over lesser quality individuals.
I have 4 yr old individuals that I started from pure males and they’re
just starting to flower.
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Yeah, this all makes sense. In the early stages of domestication of a dioecious species, it seems the most efficient breeding strategy is to use monoecious mutants such as Early Golden as pollen donors, if we can find them. So I totally understand why Early Golden and its descendants are used for pollen.
But I can’t help wonder whether the machinery for producing an awesome fruit might be sitting hidden inside a pure male, never revealed except where that male has pollenated some female and produced fruit. The way to discover those superior male individuals would be to systematically cross-breed them and examine the results. For example, an enterprising breeder could cross 1000 vigorous males with good wild females (e.g., Morris Burton), then select the 10 males that produce the best offspring.
The next best alternative would seem to be continued aggressive searching for excellent wild fruit.
Understand that I have no formal training in genetics and no experience as a breeder, so all this is amateur speculation.
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Odds are against your suggestion since persimmon is either tetraploid or hexaploid. A given female has about 1 in 10,000 chance of being a significantly better than average plant. Proof is in the number of “out of the wild” selections we have after about 150 years of active selection. Finding a male with obvious positive traits using those methods is a needle in a haystack approach. IMO, a better approach would be to breed from the best females, then use those males to find which convey the most positive traits. Backcross to the improved parent and in one or 2 generations, you have a male version of a known improved variety.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
In the thread on Early Golden, I suggested a slightly different approach to getting “a male version of a known improved variety.” Actually, I’m going for a monoecious version of known improved dioecious females. Tell me what you think.
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So a seedling of a nice female like Lehmans Delight 100-46 (crossed with an unknown wild male nearby) would not even have a chance to be as big/nice as 100-46 (well if the seedling ends up being a female)? (only pretend a 1 in 10,000 chance?) or was that statement more about seedlings of a wild female plant that already makes small fruit? Just curious, as I have seedlings of my 100-46 that I was going to give away to people.
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My statement re 1 in 10,000 is relevant only for wild D. Virginiana. If you consider seedlings of highly selected cultivars, the probability of getting something useful is much higher, perhaps as high as 1 in 100 in a random cross and as high as 1 in 10 where both parents are highly selected. Note that male persimmons are relatively hard to characterize genetically but if it is a male from a highly selected female, the probability is much better. This is just educated guesswork so don’t take it to the bank.
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Dax had posted that 100-46 was a cross of two Claypools.
B59(Marion x G2) x G62(Juhl x George)
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Missing Dax on this forum!
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A lot of us miss him. He was very good at ferreting out arcane information on plants he grafted.
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100-46 aka Lehman’s Delight is a B-59 x G 62 cross of which G 62 is a male parent. So let’s not confuse this incorrect quote that was’t mine.
Time has passed since my original post and my F-100 is now fruiting but the fruits are very small and inedible.
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That was the point I was making. You never said that.
I think if something is posted, it would ideally be from an authoritative source of truth, and not from incorrect sources that have been repeated.
LOL, well said. It turns out that human intelligence suffers from the same “garbage-in, garbage-out” issues as artificial intelligence. 
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100-46 is a B-56 X G-62 cross as conveyed to me by Jerry.
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